Spaying/Neutering and COE Breeders

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by JazzFest

Jazz was neutered by the SPCA even before I met him at 12 wks, he had no sutres or scars to speak of.

Needless to say, this whole topic of fixing too early scares me.

What should I anticipate since it's already happened and out of my hands?

Please don't worry about something you have no control over. Millions of dogs are spayed/neutered young, every year and live long healthy lives. Many of my own fosters that were neutered at a later age (anywhere between 18 months and 7 years of age) still died of cancer...or tore their ACL's. My own dog China, that came into rescue as one of my fosters later adopted by us...was intact till the rescue spayed her at 2 1/2 years of age. She ruptured her ACL at 9 and died of bone cancer at almost 10. If they live long enough, they will die of something.

Enjoy your dog, and do the best you can.

Gina

[Mick Trainer]

I havn't read many of the replies in this thread and am sure people have covered pretty much all the bases but now days if someone says they are going to desex early they won't be getting a pup off me. In the end if I don't think they are responsible enough to have an entire dog they won't be getting one either.

Mick.

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by JemarsSerena

My plan is to "reccomend" that owners wait until 24 months to alter their pup. I will not tell an owner that they can't. I just want to see the pups grow to their full potential so I can know what my lines produce. All pups will be sold on a limited registration anyway to discourage frivolous breeding.

I'm with you. It seems that the folks you trust with an intact animal usually want to speuter... it's those that you really want to make sure the animal is rendered incapable of breeding who are the difficult ones... at least in my experience...Let's just say I'm not going to just take a person's word anymore, I'm tired of nearly ending up in jail over idiots. I'm doing background checks from now on for any potential puppy buyer that doesn't come highly recommended from a trusted friend.

Remember, a limited registration does not keep a person from breeding their dog; the puppies simply cannot be registered.... with AKC. Also remember; a contract is only as good as the people who sign it.

I do have a clause in my contract that allows me the option of collecting a male before neutering should I deem him worth the expense and trouble.

Regarding the spaying of bitches; any bitch I have that will not be used for breeding is spayed. I also only want one intact male in my home at a time. Life is hard enough, and the tension that is put on "competing" dogs in the household can be disruptive to everyone's mental happiness.

I have a breeder friend who had always kept her bitches intact for life... until one of her girls got a wicked case of pyo. It was nearly a very grim end for a beautiful and very loved bitch.

[SarasMom]

Some vets are really pushing the early spay/neuter. I remember my vet asking me about Marshall at 12 weeks.... how about we get those "seeds" out now? No way I said and he was not neutered until 2 years. They didn't bother to ask about Morgen. :)

I would think it's a different issue between males and females. An intact female with heat cycles is much much harder to manage for the average owner. They have to be contained every moment they are in heat and then the risk of pyometra. Not worth the risk for a dog who isn't going to breed. I can see letting them have one cycle, but many pet owners are going to *beg* to spay after that. It's a big mess and hassle. Now a male is an entirely different matter. Of course vets are going to keep telling clients that neutering their boy is going to fix every behavioral problem under the sun. argh.

[SarasMom]

Forgot to add, there is the option with the females of leaving the ovaries.. seems that might be a possible solution.

[Mick Trainer]

Forgot to add, there is the option with the females of leaving the ovaries.. seems that might be a possible solution.

I have always wondered why vets don't advocate this as an otpion both in bitches and dogs. I have never known why we don't perform tubal ligations and vascectomies that will reduce unwanted pregancies but allow the dog to be what it was going to be. Sure with a bitch you will still have seasons and a male will be a male dog (fancy buying a male to be a male) but for me I truly don't see much of a down side here. Granted I don't know all the facts about such procedures but no vets have been able to explain why they do not offer this satisfactorally.

Mick.

[poohbearsmom]

Here's a question:

re: leaving the ovaries intact; if bitch's ovaries behave as human ovaries do, (I'm going by personal experience here..I know..... eeeyyyyeeew), then would the ovaries eventually realize there is no "need for them" and send the bitch into "menopause" anyway?

Human ovaries, in fairly short order (a few years time) will send the human into "premature" menopause unless HRT is utilized, thus producing the same effect as a total hysterectomy. They simply stop producing the hormones, although it is not sudden hormone extinction.

[SarasMom]

There is a new vet at my vet office, just out of vet school, so she's right up on a lot of stuff. She said the dog would go into heats, just no pyo, bleeding, etc. The owner would still deal with some issues during the cycle. She didn't say anything about hormones turning off.

[Mick Trainer]

I have zero proof of this so take it purely as a theory but I would think that they wouldn't loose the overies simply as dogs don't live long enough for this to occur. If the average live span is 12 years and the dog is tied at 12 months I don't think the time would allow for the overies to stop functioning. 11 years wouldn't be long enough and if it was it would only be in the last 1-2 years.

Like I said just a thought.

Mick.

[freakygoldfish]

Originally Posted by Mick Trainer

I havn't read many of the replies in this thread and am sure people have covered pretty much all the bases but now days if someone says they are going to desex early they won't be getting a pup off me. In the end if I don't think they are responsible enough to have an entire dog they won't be getting one either.

Mick.

Do you try to educate them at all? I understand not adopting to those that insist on early spay/neuter, but you have to admit that early s/n is crammed down our throats by vets, shelters, rescue volunteers and animal organizations. It's understandable why so many think that's just part of responsible ownership. Many rescues won't even consider adopting to someone w/ an intact dog. It doesn't matter if the rescues are altered before leaving their foster home and the intact dog is a conformation champion free of health defects. In other words there's no chance of the two dogs breeding.

Unfortunatley those that need to spay/neuter often don't. They want their dogs to breed so they can make some extra cash or they really believe it won't happen to them. Most of their dogs are from BYBs who don't care about spay/neuter contracts or limited registration. Many base the decision to give limited vs full reg on what the buyer is willing to pay. We've all seen the websites and ads that list one price for no papers/limited and another for full. Also thanks to registries like APRI, ConKC and both UKCs, it's easy for wannabe BYBs to get around limited registration. I believe the AKC is now offering an avenue for those dog that can be traced back to AKC stock to gain full AKC registration. I truly think those that are capable of responsibly keeping intact animals are rare. Screening isn't fool proof either. There are many BYBs and Puppymills with famous lines in their breeding programs.

I belong to another forum for a different breed and two different member have had pregnancy scares w/ their dogs in recent months. These are responsible dog owners IMO. They've shown and finished their dogs, found mentors and take advantage of every educational opportunity. Both scares coincided w/ family deaths and this is a breed that doesn't have the most predicatable heats. It really has me shaken and I would be reluctant to keep intact animals of both sexes myself. That's honestly the only fault I can find w/ either of them. Perhaps they should've stuck to keeping only females until they had more experience? (For the record one did not result in a pregnancy and the other was confirmed by ultrasound today.)

[6strongdogs]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I had to put in my $00.02 on this matter.

Our family has had the exact same ideas in regards to tubal ligation/vasectomy on canines, be they pups or adults, & have consulted several vets on this issue.
It can be done,however I have gathered from most of my discussions with several vets is that there several reasons it is not widely practised.
From not being trained in such techniques in veterinary school(which may be the most valid explanation),to complete uterine removal is most effective,to the removal of a section of the Fallopian tubes in female tubal ligation may not be as effective because they may grow back or become infected.

In my opinion, none of these excuses can be considered valid in respect to the advancement of canine health care & treatment.
That said,I do not own nor will i ever own a spayed/neutered dog,not even as a pet. Nor will i ever instruct anyone to do so as a prerequisite to obtaining one of my pups. This choice is ultimately left solely on the buyer. This is due to the fact that
1. if a buyer is across an ocean you cannot stop/dictate their actions or it would at least be somewhat difficult to do so.
2. if a buyer requests a particular type of pup,bred for certain amount of a particular type of drive or temperament or physical structure for a type of work,early neutering will have an effect on the pups potential outcome as an adult. I say this because I have seen bold,even tempered 6 mo pups following a normal growth rate coming from impressive lineage become fearful,timid,cringing balls of black fur that never reverted to show their previous potential. This ,to me, is truly a shameful waste of a dog, and i believe if someone wants a male dog thats not going to be a male dog, they should try to want something else.

Again,this is only my opinion.

[Mick Trainer]

Do you try to educate them at all? Oh sure. In real terms it is more to do with not selling to people who I cannot guide and who I think will do poorly by the pup. If they simply think they shoud and learn they shouldn't and are comfortable no worries but if you think it must be done it is no problem to find a pup else where.

Mick.

[SarasMom]

tubal ligation

Well in the female case, not talking about tubal ligation, but a removal of the uterus while leaving the ovaries. Leaving the uterus intact would not alleviate pyometra or cancer risk. As it is now in a typical spay, everything is removed.

I guess I can see vasectomy for a male if an owner is going to keep an intact bitch in the same home. Otherwise, no reason for even that.