Are goals different?

[Lora Lee]

Are goals different for breeding working class dogs? Help me out here, I'm very new. When evualating a dog or bitch is it beneficial to litter owner to specificly choose a strong pedigree over the actual dog? Demand a higher price, although a lesser pup?

Just wondering if people want to buy a pedigree, or a dog?

[Nancy Estes]

I feel that this is a rather disingenous question and a lot of it has been answered very thoroughly in other threads, but I'll answer anyway.

First off, an old saying - better a plain maid from a good family than a pretty maid from a bad family. Simply put, if you are looking for an animal for breeding, you have a better chance for a good breeding prospect if you buy a less than outstanding dog/bitch from a good family (i.e., a good pedigree), than buying one with an outstanding appearance from a bad family (i.e., a mediocre pedigree). Substitute appearance for any trait you wish.

More often than not, you have a better chance of getting good traits out of a breeding with a strong pedigree behind the breeding than if you breed to a dog with an outstanding appearance/working ability/whatever that has a weak pedigree behind him.

Do some people, whether working or conformation oriented, breed or buy ONLY on the basis of pedigree? Yes, some do. Is that the smart way to go? No, of course not. Both the animal itself AND the pedigree should be taken into account, particularly if you are interested in breeding. If someone only wants a dog to show or compete with as a hobby and doesn't intend to breed, it doesn't really matter which they look at as long as the animal itself can satisfy their goals. In which case the price they pay is also irrelevant since the animal represents what they are looking for and what they are willing to pay for.

Nancy

[WorkinDogz]

Every family has their "black sheep"---some---have certifiable nutcases.

The Maid might come from a great family---but to ignore the individual, in favor of the family, is, IMO where your "gold-diggers" (you know---those who have alterier motives or less than honorable intentions or.....just don't have a clue) are fooled.

I've seen beautiful dogs with very sound temperaments come from nothing (or even GARBAGE....Kimbertal comes to mind.....believe it or not; even THEY have produced some good looking dogs that don't die of some genetic defect or another by the age of 2.) but-----does that mean he/she should be reproduced? Nope......sure doesn't.

By the same token-----

I've seen some pretty darn nice pedigrees---produce some real trash.

The individual, who lacks character and temperament....which is out of the breed standard.....not just in "looks" either....well; breeding to him/her only serves to pass on the very traits that a breeder should be hoping to eliminate.

Stud dogs and brood bitches aren't magicians. Neither is a good pedigree.

Some faults are minor; and some faults should never be looked past. Character and temperament is the foundation. Reproducing it only asks for cracks in the progeny's foundation from the whelp.

[Nancy Estes]

WorkinDogz – are you really saying anything different here?

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WorkinDogz:
but to ignore the individual, in favor of the family

I've seen beautiful dogs with very sound temperaments come from nothing

I've seen some pretty darn nice pedigrees---produce some real trash.

The individual, who lacks character and temperament....which is out of the breed standard.....not just in "looks" either....well; breeding to him/her only serves to pass on the very traits that a breeder should be hoping to eliminate.
===============

Nancy Estes
if you are looking for an animal for breeding, you have a better chance for a good breeding prospect if you buy a less than outstanding dog/bitch from a good family (i.e., a good pedigree), than buying one with an outstanding appearance from a bad family (i.e., a mediocre pedigree).

you have a better chance of getting good traits out of a breeding with a strong pedigree behind the breeding than if you breed to a dog with an outstanding appearance/working ability/whatever that has a weak pedigree behind him.

Do some people, whether working or conformation oriented, breed or buy ONLY on the basis of pedigree? Yes, some do. Is that the smart way to go? No, of course not. Both the animal itself AND the pedigree should be taken into account, particularly if you are interested in breeding
===============

Nancy

[WorkinDogz]

I don't disagree that both the pedigree and the individual need to be taken into consideration......what I have trouble with is when "breeders" are willing to look past obvious faults (character and temperament) and breed to it ANYWAY.

Unless of course.....there really is no weak temperament and character.....just a feble attempt to slam another breeder...and justify why their bitch might not be the super producer that it was hoped (and her pedigree said) she could be.

The problem, IMO, lies when one fails to take both the individual and the pedigree into consideration.....and might just be blinded BY the pedigree.

[Lora Lee]

Originally posted by Nancy Estes
More often than not, you have a better chance of getting good traits out of a breeding with a strong pedigree behind the breeding than if you breed to a dog with an outstanding appearance/working ability/whatever that has a weak pedigree behind him. Nancy

A strong pedigree would be what? 90% dog and bitches titled, 80% what is actually "strong" in your view? And for the sport dogs/bitches is that the same? And how far back should you look?

If I saw a correct to the standard, no flaws, faults or disqualifications, with what appears to be a good temperament, strong, approachable, curious, friendly dog/bitch with an "all right" pedigree it would be wise to breed a lesser dog with a better pedigree? Let's say the lesser dog had a weak temperament....would you still choose the pedigree over temperament and chalk up his actions to training or lack of it?

I don't get how people can breed "soft dog, weak in temperament but he produced countless times, high driven hard dogs, the type of temperament I was looking for."

I may be wrong, back-a$$-backwards, but will breed only the best I can find, to the best I have (the dog itself). I would suspect if I breed a soft dog, or a weak dog---half my litter will be just that. I'd rather a genetic mishap pop up on one or two, than be stuck with 6 pups that are likely to be unsafe.

[Nancy Estes]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz
I don't disagree that both the pedigree and the individual need to be taken into consideration......what I have trouble with is when "breeders" are willing to look past obvious faults (character and temperament) and breed to it ANYWAY.

Unless of course.....there really is no weak temperament and character.....just a feble attempt to slam another breeder...and justify why their bitch might not be the super producer that it was hoped (and her pedigree said) she could be.

The problem, IMO, lies when one fails to take both the individual and the pedigree into consideration.....and might just be blinded BY the pedigree.

Hasn't all this already been addressed?

Nancy

[WorkinDogz]

Oh many times.....and it should be continued to be addressed until *some breeders* stop making excuses why they don't do it!

[Lora Lee]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz
The individual, who lacks character and temperament....which is out of the breed standard.....not just in "looks" either....well; breeding to him/her only serves to pass on the very traits that a breeder should be hoping to eliminate.

But it made me wonder, is the pedigree so powerful behind the working or sport, where the dog itself comes second? The poor traits will be passed down.

Some faults are minor; and some faults should never be looked past. Character and temperament is the foundation. Reproducing it only asks for cracks in the progeny's foundation from the whelp.

I agree :) Faults, such as temperament can never be looked over, there's no excuse.

Breeding should be SELECTIVE, decrease the odds of CHD, improve Longivity, or a sound temperament. A breeder must have goals, what one strives to improve or make better. Disregarding the character of a sire or dam only makes me think one thing...$$$$$. That buyers will be fooled, and rely only on a 4 generation pedigree. :(

[Lora Lee]

Originally posted by Nancy Estes


Hasn't all this already been addressed?

Nancy

I've never seen it addressed, so maybe there are others here that weren't members before, that can benefit. Maybe some won't....but I feel it's important to address it.

Nancy--I really did not know it's that common for one to select pedigree over the dog. I am learning.

[Koenig]

I have to agree with both Nancy and WD.

Titles and pedigree do not make the dogs in a breeding program better than the next guy's but they do offer a sign of comitment to the breed and improving it if you know how to look. For both buyer and breeder to me, we must not only seek out the best for us pedigree's but also breeders with the highest personal standards as well. These types of questions always seem to lead to ethics with me.


I was reading somewhere on the net about the OFA, a breeder with nice dogs and the pedigree to match actually said "I do use OFA, but only to give buyers piece of mind" another said "If my dog fails OFA, they uselly pass Pennhip" To me the overall health "picture" is the most important thing, if a breeder seems disinterested in ensuring that breeding stock is in top medical health, either doesn't care or is worried about how this will cut into puppy money. But more important what other things are they willing to compromise or even cover up, to get the perfect dog for them? Do they care about the breed? "No". So how can they improve it? If you as a breeder uses a male from these type of people, will they tell you the truth or tell you what you want to here in order to get the stud fee? I think the latter.........

"The individual, who lacks character and temperament"--WD

Are you reffering to the dogs in the breed or the person?

The rest of my posting would be basically be Nancy's and WD's with a added rant on ethics. Ms.Estes (titled right?) would end up repeating a certain story. ;)

Koenig

[Phoenix]

I have edited out obvious references to previous posts/members.

[WorkinDogz]

Originally posted by Koenig
"The individual, who lacks character and temperament"--WD

Are you reffering to the dogs in the breed or the person?

Well.....both! A dog with a weak temperament/character will generally lack the heart it takes to be a functional working dog. Making him what? Little more than a PET.

A breeder with a weak temperament/character will be inclined to look at (but not see) obvious faults in their own dogs (as well as others) and blame the world...make every excuse under the sun....whine, cry and bellyache that a litter didn't "turn out" as they hoped. Making him/her what? Little more than an "upscale" BYB.

Those are the same people who will complain that it was too hot, too cold, too wet, too dry, the-judge-doesn't-like-me (or the dog) or the moon was in Virgo instead of Aquarius...and THAT'S WHY the dog didn't leave the scent pad on his track in the trial.

[Nancy Estes]

Originally posted by Lora Lee
Nancy--I really did not know it's that common for one to select pedigree over the dog. I am learning.

It is common in all dog competition endeavors because there are some people who do not know what they're looking at unless they can also look at a pedigree (or a handler, owner, breeder). This does not make for the best breeding program. The best of both worlds is to KNOW the pedigree and KNOW what you are looking at with each individual dog. Titles do not automatically make for offspring that can be similarly titled nor does ability or looks in an individual dog automatically mean that its offspring will inherit the same. There is no *paint-by-numbers* formula for successful animal breeding, which is why it is still part science and part art. Barring laws regulating breeding, each breeder has to make their own decisions as to what they think is correct, right, good, bad, etc. Everybody has their own opinion, along with other things ;), whether well-informed or not.

Nancy

[Nancy Estes]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz
Oh many times.....and it should be continued to be addressed until *some breeders* stop making excuses why they don't do it!

I hereby wish you a very, very long life :D. Unless you can figure out a way to change human nature, your crusade will, I suspect, be a very long one, perhaps even endless. I feel sure, however, that you will not despair nor will you tire.

Nancy