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Breeding Just about anything related to breeding should go here. Please remember, litter announcements are fine, but puppies/dogs for sale, through posts or links, are strictly prohibited. The discussion of breeders is not permited.

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  #1  
Old 01-25-2009, 01:52 PM
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Karl vh Neubrand

I was just wondering if anyone bred to Karl and what their experience/puppies were like.

Also - what were the blood lines on the female you bred to him?

I have a male pup I kept back out of him and I am deciding what to do with him. Preliminary of his hips/elbows are great (he was born April 1st 08) His temperment is a bit soft - but good (really nice boy - just not a top points dog is ScH but would be able to be titled). His coat is OK - bit long around the neck but by no means bad at all - excellent bone/body/head for a pup his age. I have heard quite a bit about some offspring of his recently - I know he hasnt been bred much here and is now for sale. Just wanted to see what everyone else thinks/knows about him. Im starting him in handling classes Mid Feb and will be showing him CKC this year :) YaY

Thanks :)
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  #2  
Old 01-25-2009, 02:21 PM
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Re: Karl vh Neubrand

Hope this doesn't turn into another Ramzes thread LOL.

I like Karl. I have never bred to him, I don't breed dogs BUT... My best friend has two Karl pups. I see them every day and watch them grow up. Neither one is a real hard dog but they do both have enough drive to get by. Both are very nice healthy pups. We picked up a female in April at the USRC Nationals out of Karl / Bonny. She is nice, looks a lot like her mom. He got a male a couple of months later out of Karl / Quadra and he is also a nice pup, he is a little tank with a beautiful head but his head isn't keeping up with his body LOL. I think they are both going to do okay in the shows this spring.
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  #3  
Old 01-25-2009, 03:00 PM
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Re: Karl vh Neubrand

Any of Karl's pups can not be shown in USRC. He was deemed unbreedable for life at his BST by an ADRK judge.
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  #4  
Old 01-25-2009, 04:06 PM
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Re: Karl vh Neubrand

Skip - THAT IS SUCH BULL CRAP !

If you remember, I was going to buy a pup but changed my mind after hearing that RUMOR. I spend some of the money on other things and then found out it was bull. You can not register a litter with USRC but each and every pup can be registered individually without a problem !!!

Not only will Karl pups be shown this year but they will WIN. The USRC is going to be a thng of the past anyway if they don't get their ---- together soon.

Besides, I have been to plenty of USRC shows and I believe I've even seen a couple of dogs out there that didn't look like they even had a heartbeat. If a dog has AKC paperwork it can and will be shown !
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  #5  
Old 01-25-2009, 04:12 PM
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Re: Karl vh Neubrand

I double checked with a few USRC people. I apologize. I thought that was the ruling. I was wrong.
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  #6  
Old 01-25-2009, 04:15 PM
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Re: Karl vh Neubrand

Although Karl was deemed unbreedable for life by an ADRK judge (that part was definitely true, I was there and seen and heard it), I was mistaken that any pups from him can't be shown.
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  #7  
Old 01-25-2009, 06:24 PM
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Re: Karl vh Neubrand

The male I kept back is very nice - I will get a few better pics of him this week and post them in the gallery. His temperment is the same - He has enough drive to get by but no means is he a hard dog. His sister on the other hand ( I do not have her - she is with the co owner of my bitch) is BEAUTIFUL!!! And she has CRAZY drive - so did the rest of the pups in the litter. I was at the USRC show when all that happened with Karl and saw it myself so I know what you are saying Skip!!
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  #8  
Old 02-02-2009, 08:25 PM
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Re: Karl vh Neubrand

The such bull crap statement kinda speaks for itself. There is no problem with anyone showing a Karl pup. Skip spoke with someone who cleared that up with him and he came back and corrected his statement.

The USRC being a thing of the past if they don't get their stuff together also speaks for itself. In the past year they have lost a lot of members. They have lost entire clubs. There is so much drama going on. Rules being broken, favoratisim being shown, votes not being counted, people not being held responsible for what others feel is wrong. Some of the members who have left have been members for a very long time, some of them were officers. There has been a lot of talk in the past year about someone starting a NEW National club and if that happens it won't be a good thing for the current USRC. Members have not even gotten something as simple as their magazine in the past year and it is upsetting some people, quite a few people.

I have met some very nice people in the USRC and I've been to some great shows. Like any club though, some people are trying to do what is best and others are trying their best to tear things apart.

I myself am not a member and the Karl thing is one of the reasons. He did not pass his BST here that is a fact BUT the fact is that his handling had more to do with his failing it than the dog. USRC members can't breed to Karl because he failed his BST. SOME members have a way around it and just have someone else do a breeding for them but if I myself decide to breed to him, I'll be suspended because I don't have the right friends. Karl passed his breed test in GERMANY with very high scores and he did it with a breeder respected world wide as owning and producing some of the best in the world. Thats good enough for me. I won't let a club tell me that Karl is not a breedable dog. I know his owner and I have seen what he produces with my own eyes.
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  #9  
Old 02-02-2009, 08:52 PM
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Re: Karl vh Neubrand

I'm not involved in any of this in any way, shape or form, and I do not want to start any trouble, (or hijack a thread) but I have a few questions. I like to read these threads just to expand my knowledge and I'm curious how one judge can determine a dog not be eligible to breed? If I understand this thread, because Karl failed the BST, he cannot ever be bred? A club can do that? How does that work and what are the rules? What all does the BST entail in order to make that determination?

It's just an interesting thread and I enjoy learning. I've learned SO much from all of you already!!! Thanks in advance and please don't let this start a mess!! If this needs to be moved, please feel free....
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  #10  
Old 02-02-2009, 09:45 PM
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Re: Karl vh Neubrand

The USRC has lost members this past year, but I wouldn't say it was "a lot". Check with Liz, and she can give you accurate numbers. With any organization there is a certain level of attrition to be expected within any given year, especially with an election year. And there is a certain level of new members to be expected to join, also, which has happened this past year.

As for the membership not receiving "something as simple as the magazine", well when you have actually helped to put together a magazine you may understand the enormous work involved to produce a magazine. I am currently on the magazine committee (have been for 2 months), and I can attest for the work involved. Jane did an awesome job with the mag before. She was pretty much a one woman show! When she stepped down as editor the club had to find a willing person to head up the mag, and there weren't people beating down the door to step up to the plate. A new editor, publisher, mail house, etc. had to be found along with new volunteers for the committee. Then you have to factor in the whole learning curve... So while it may seem like something simple to produce a mag it's really not unless you have a group of volunteers that already have/ had knowledge of doing so. With that said, once we get our first issue out as the "new mag committee" the others will come much easier.

Please understand that I'm not trying to say the USRC is without fault because NO club is without fault - not the ARC, ADRK, etc. I believe in the ideals behind the USRC - the BST and the working Rottweiler.

I did see Karl fail his BST, and I agree that it was a training issue and not Karl himself. I also think that it was B.S. that he was deemed unbreedable for life. I think he should have been held back and allowed to retest. With that said he did fail his BST and was deemed unbreedable for life. I personally would not breed to a dog that was deemed unbreedable for life. - regardless of the reason. I also would not breed to ANY dog without a BST/ Ztp, and I would not purchase a puppy/ dog that does not have both parents possessing a BST/ Ztp (in addition to working titles). Now Karl has failed a BST and passed his Ztp in Germany. I suggest contacting the BST Committee to obtain the EXACT ruling on breeding to Karl.
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Last edited by Zephir; 02-02-2009 at 10:00 PM. Reason: clairification w/ BST info
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  #11  
Old 02-02-2009, 10:11 PM
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Re: Karl vh Neubrand

I don't think that it will start a mess.

The USRC has their own rules. The BST is a breed stability test and MANY don't even bother to do the test because IF anything goes wrong the judge can deem the dog un-breedable PERIOD. The BST consists of many things. They weigh and measure the dog along with a critique because they want the dog to fit the standard. They do a temperament test which includes gun fire from a blank pistol. They test the dogs grips and release on a sleeve and the dog does a performance routine using blinds and a helper.

They want people to breed good dogs. Dogs with correct conformation and temperament. There is nothing wrong with that BUT there are cases that a dog should be given a second chance. A lot more people would do the test if it wasn't pretty much a life and death situation. One small mistake, dog not feeling well, handler not feeling well, many things can have an effect on the outcome.

In Karl's case he was a little jumpy during the gunfire routine. he didn't attack someone but he did get a little jittery. Karl was doing the test with a NEW owner / handler who was also very new to the test. He didn't have Karl prepared and when MOST tests are done with gunfire coming after you see the judge ... this test was done as they were approaching the judge. Dog and handler were not ready for that. INSTANT FAIL ! Karl deemed un-breedable. Everything else doesn't matter. He can be perfect in all other areas but still fail on one section of the test.

Karl didn't even have to take the test. It is something the owner wanted to have. If the dog never took the test everyone would be happy to breed to him and you can believe people would. There are many many dogs being bred without ever doing a BST and that is perfectly fine but one mistake on a BST and the dog is deemed worthless. It does not make sense. He took the test during a USRC event and failed and now USRC members can not breed to him.

Owner failed the dog more than the dog failed the test. Karl was V-1 at the 2005 Klub show in Germany with 80 dogs in class. Not many dogs here in the USRC can say that. He is not a total waste of a dog.

You can read more about the BST and other tests on the USRC site.
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  #12  
Old 02-02-2009, 10:22 PM
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Re: Karl vh Neubrand

Quote:
Originally Posted by toobad View Post
I don't think that it will start a mess.

The USRC has their own rules. The BST is a breed stability test and MANY don't even bother to do the test because IF anything goes wrong the judge can deem the dog un-breedable PERIOD. The BST consists of many things. They weigh and measure the dog along with a critique because they want the dog to fit the standard. They do a temperament test which includes gun fire from a blank pistol. They test the dogs grips and release on a sleeve and the dog does a performance routine using blinds and a helper.

They want people to breed good dogs. Dogs with correct conformation and temperament. There is nothing wrong with that BUT there are cases that a dog should be given a second chance. A lot more people would do the test if it wasn't pretty much a life and death situation. One small mistake, dog not feeling well, handler not feeling well, many things can have an effect on the outcome.

In Karl's case he was a little jumpy during the gunfire routine. he didn't attack someone but he did get a little jittery. Karl was doing the test with a NEW owner / handler who was also very new to the test. He didn't have Karl prepared and when MOST tests are done with gunfire coming after you see the judge ... this test was done as they were approaching the judge. Dog and handler were not ready for that. INSTANT FAIL ! Karl deemed un-breedable. Everything else doesn't matter. He can be perfect in all other areas but still fail on one section of the test.

Karl didn't even have to take the test. It is something the owner wanted to have. If the dog never took the test everyone would be happy to breed to him and you can believe people would. There are many many dogs being bred without ever doing a BST and that is perfectly fine but one mistake on a BST and the dog is deemed worthless. It does not make sense. He took the test during a USRC event and failed and now USRC members can not breed to him.

Owner failed the dog more than the dog failed the test. Karl was V-1 at the 2005 Klub show in Germany with 80 dogs in class. Not many dogs here in the USRC can say that. He is not a total waste of a dog.

You can read more about the BST and other tests on the USRC site.
I think the "unbreedable for life" ruling was harsh. Like I said before..I was right there. It was not an INSTANT FAIL, Karl was given another chance with the gunfire after his first reaction. I think it is extremely rare for that type of ruling to be given, and I was surprised at the decision of the judge, but it was from a very respected ADRK judge. I think the breeder (Oliver) was right there also at the time. I don't think the new owner had owned the dog very long. Probably would have went better if Oliver had been the handler.
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  #13  
Old 02-02-2009, 10:25 PM
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Re: Karl vh Neubrand

FYI - the person handling Karl during his BST was not his owner.

I think you gave a very good discription of the BST!!

Personally, I think it is a cop out that people don't attempt the BST for fear of being deemed unbreedable. Granted we are not in Germany, but all dogs must have a Ztp. before breeding there. No Ztp, no breedings. What's wrong with that??

Yep, Oliver was right there.
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  #14  
Old 02-02-2009, 10:37 PM
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Re: Karl vh Neubrand

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephir View Post
FYI - the person handling Karl during his BST was not his owner.

I think you gave a very good discription of the BST!!

Personally, I think it is a cop out that people don't attempt the BST for fear of being deemed unbreedable. Granted we are not in Germany, but all dogs must have a Ztp. before breeding there. No Ztp, no breedings. What's wrong with that??

Yep, Oliver was right there.
I wasn't absolutely sure who the guy was handling Karl...I thought it was the owner. Either way, I think the dog would have done better with Oliver, who had bred, raised, and trained the dog. I just didn't understand why Oliver didn't handle him, especially for something as important as the BST.
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  #15  
Old 02-02-2009, 10:42 PM
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Re: Karl vh Neubrand

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephir View Post
FYI - the person handling Karl during his BST was not his owner.

I think you gave a very good discription of the BST!!

Personally, I think it is a cop out that people don't attempt the BST for fear of being deemed unbreedable. Granted we are not in Germany, but all dogs must have a Ztp. before breeding there. No Ztp, no breedings. What's wrong with that??

Yep, Oliver was right there.
What I was trying to say is that it wasn't Oliver on the end of that leash and the dog was with new owner and handler. Everybody has to start somewhere but that was an expensive lesson in handling.

Nothing wrong with requiring a breed test but I wouldn't call it a cop-out if people here don't feel comfortable with it. Even with an established club here in the U.S. the dogs don't get the attention and training they do in Germany. Any little town probably has a club over there and many have nothing better to do than drink good German beer and work their dogs

A lot of owners here don't have that luxury and they have nowhere near the hours and time invested in training. Some people here in the U.S. have to drive hours just to train a couple of times a week and in Germany they can pretty much go next door so to speak.

There are not enough training clubs here or people with real knowledge. It makes it hard for some here to do what their dog could probably do over in Germany.
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