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Breeding Just about anything related to breeding should go here. Please remember, litter announcements are fine, but puppies/dogs for sale, through posts or links, are strictly prohibited. The discussion of breeders is not permited.

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  #1  
Old 07-23-2008, 11:58 AM
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pennhip

Are there more people pro or anti penn hip and why? i am pro penn hip because they use the same method every time. the one problem i hear the most is that there is not a web site that tells you the results. when dogs are imported is there a way to tell on a data base about the hips?? Or do you have to go by the papers? the only problem i have with ofa is any vet can do it and so you have to worry about if they know what they are doing when they xray. And why would you need 3 people giving a rating
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  #2  
Old 07-23-2008, 04:26 PM
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Re: pennhip

I'm not because there is no standard.When they did my dog and she(docter) said there was much movment so she would redo and use ALL her mite to so some movement.so right there he had more pull then other dogs they tested(there should be a gage to put the same pressur on each in each breed.Don't get me wrong he scored90% but I think the test is wrong and should use the first test which would be almost 100.If you don't do the same thing for each dog then your compairing apples to oranges.One dog done different changes the whole numbering system.P.S. They did his 3 times!
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  #3  
Old 07-23-2008, 05:32 PM
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Re: pennhip

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Originally Posted by bigdogweilerx2 View Post
I'm not because there is no standard.When they did my dog and she(docter) said there was much movment so she would redo and use ALL her mite to so some movement.so right there he had more pull then other dogs they tested(there should be a gage to put the same pressur on each in each breed.Don't get me wrong he scored90% but I think the test is wrong and should use the first test which would be almost 100.If you don't do the same thing for each dog then your compairing apples to oranges.One dog done different changes the whole numbering system.P.S. They did his 3 times!
so you are saying pennhip method is differnt for each breed?
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  #4  
Old 07-23-2008, 06:57 PM
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Re: pennhip

In PennHIP dogs are compared against other dogs of that breed, which is reasonable (unless you only have a few dogs who've been checked in your breed). It is also done with at least reasonably objective actual measurements, and your results are actual hip distraction index measurements, not generic ratings like "good". OFA is based on the opinion of the reviewing veterinarians (not your vet, the OFA vets), has generic ratings, and you can often get a different rating if you re-xray and resubmit your films. Both depend to varying degrees on the skill of the person taking the x-rays, but PennHIP requires substantially more training. However, OFA maintains a searchable online database, PennHIP does not, and this is the primary reason if I only had one to do, I would do OFA. The whole point of health testing of any kind is to make educated breeding decisions, and without a searchable database, this is substantially more difficult to do.
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  #5  
Old 07-23-2008, 07:18 PM
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Re: pennhip

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Originally Posted by spidey View Post
In PennHIP dogs are compared against other dogs of that breed, which is reasonable (unless you only have a few dogs who've been checked in your breed). It is also done with at least reasonably objective actual measurements, and your results are actual hip distraction index measurements, not generic ratings like "good". OFA is based on the opinion of the reviewing veterinarians (not your vet, the OFA vets), has generic ratings, and you can often get a different rating if you re-xray and resubmit your films. Both depend to varying degrees on the skill of the person taking the x-rays, but PennHIP requires substantially more training. However, OFA maintains a searchable online database, PennHIP does not, and this is the primary reason if I only had one to do, I would do OFA. The whole point of health testing of any kind is to make educated breeding decisions, and without a searchable database, this is substantially more difficult to do.
so is there a data base to surch for the hd frei dog from other countrys???
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  #6  
Old 07-23-2008, 09:29 PM
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Re: pennhip

Germany has software called ADRK Dogbase that you can find results on all dogs from there!
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  #7  
Old 07-23-2008, 10:33 PM
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Re: pennhip

in germany but how many people in the usa have access to this softwere?most people in the us say ok the papers say it is so that is what we belive. to me becase i can go on a public web site then ofa must be the best method. i have hurd of breeders xraying some other dog because the dog they have has bad hips and you can see it in what they produce 4 litters all but to have good hips and the ones with good hips are the ones the breeder kept for them self
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  #8  
Old 07-24-2008, 02:58 PM
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Re: pennhip

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Originally Posted by vomSchoenenDorf View Post
Germany has software called ADRK Dogbase that you can find results on all dogs from there!
How many people in the us have access to this software and where can you get it? and want about dog from other countrys
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  #9  
Old 07-24-2008, 05:37 PM
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Re: pennhip

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Originally Posted by djmurdock View Post
so you are saying pennhip method is differnt for each breed?
Yes it is only of that breed and what they have tested fromWhich I agree with.Every breed would be different(a working dog would be diffent then a toy group).I just think that their needs to be a gauge to measure the resistance of them pulling.Like a 6' 250 pound body builder would pull more then a 4' 82 pound woman.That why it should have a certain preset amout of pull on each one they do.
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  #10  
Old 07-24-2008, 06:04 PM
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Re: pennhip

But what i want to know is what what you guys like and dis like about the pennhip way and if a database is the only thing you dis like that would be the same thing as get a pup from over seas becuase not every one has access to the adrk database
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  #11  
Old 07-24-2008, 06:10 PM
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Re: Pennhip

speaking of the adrk database i see the usrc has partnerd the adrk so we can send hip xrays over to germany to get scores at 15mons i know ove to people that have sent there xrays over there from at vet that use to work for ofa and the xrays cam bake from germany as could not read bad Positioning but still took the money nice!!!!
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  #12  
Old 07-24-2008, 08:27 PM
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Re: pennhip

If you do PennHip they will take traditional pelvis views that you can send to OFA. That way you are covered with your breed clubs and you can still get the information you seek from PennHip.
If you are concerned with the quality of xrays your general practice takes then consider finding a vet clinic or hospital that offers digital xrays. If positioning is off then your tech can immediately reposition and retake the xrays without having to wait for a film to develop.
I must say I love working with digital xray.
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  #13  
Old 07-25-2008, 05:20 PM
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Re: pennhip

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Originally Posted by djmurdock View Post
But what i want to know is what what you guys like and dis like about the pennhip way and if a database is the only thing you dis like that would be the same thing as get a pup from over seas becuase not every one has access to the adrk database
I was just answering your 1st question,but like RoseArbour said Pennhip will take the traditional pelvis view pic to send to OFA.
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  #14  
Old 07-25-2008, 07:09 PM
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Re: pennhip

Personally I do the OFA myself....however I guess in a way its the lessor of two evils. While I agree wholeheartedly with health testing......I would LOVE there to be a test out there that was actually based on scientific measurements as opposed to a subjective 'opinion' of one vet/three vets/whatever.

I looked into PennHip once with one of the vets in Edmonton and was rather shocked when he told me that the hip score will change based on how the assessor positions the hips. He advised me that he had a Cane Corso client with failing OFA hips who REALLY just wanted a passing test ~~personally I don't know why they would want this but he told me that the vet can manipulate the hips into a passing PennHip rating. I found it all rather shocking.

And on the other hand I don't like the subjectivity of OFA ratings.....I once took three dogs in for OFA xrays same day. My vet (who is herself a breeder as well as a vet with 35 years experience) put up all three xrays on the light board to show me the differences between them. In her opinion my one girl would come back an excellent, the other girl a fair to a good, and the boy she felt would be fair. Completely mind boggling having seen the xrays and the differences she pointed out between them in terms of tightness of joint,and amount of hip joint being covered by the socket, etc......when BOTH girls came back Fair and the boy who's hips appeared the worse to us came back as a Good. I can honestly say that even as a layperson I could obviously see the differences between the girl my vet felt was an excellent and the boy who she felt was a fair......and yet the OFA radiologists didn't feel the same.

I so wish there was a rating system out there somewhere which was based on actual scientific measurements....of x # of milimeters of distance between socket and joint....etc and which would calculate the hip score that way. AND which had an open database for public viewing of results.

I don't like the OVC (Ontario Veterinary College) results as they ONLY give you Normal vs Not Normal hip rating.....as well as Normal vs Not Normal elbow rating......they don't tell you the variance of fair/good/excellent etc. And they don't have a public database.

I'll keep doing my OFA's and keep hoping that some type of less subjective test comes up in the future!!!!

Heather
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  #15  
Old 08-19-2008, 10:43 PM
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Re: pennhip

Quote:
Originally Posted by djmurdock View Post
How many people in the us have access to this software and where can you get it? and want about dog from other countrys
anybody can get access to the dogbase if they want to pay the money!!!!!!
you can get it from the ADRK for about $ 90- $ 100 per year.
it is a very useful tool. it does many things, but it is only in German
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