Litter size influence individual pup

[Canula2000]

I have heard of problems associated with a small litter with one or two pups, mainly being socialization problems. But what about the opposite, if a pup comes from an extremely large litter of 10 or more, is there the same kind of worries or other problems that might be associated with a large litter?

[brunie's mom]

I don't think there is much difference if a pup comes from a litter of 6 or a litter of 10. The only thing I've heard is that some breeders don't divide the large litter up when starting solid feedings and sometimes the pups from large litters can be food aggressive. If the breeder breaks them up into smaller groups for feeding it should be fine. I've heard of BYB's throwing a big bowl of food down....and I guess the strongest got the most food? and the weaker or the smaller got less.

Baxter is from a litter of 10 and never had food aggression, or medical or health problems.

Gina

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by Canula2000

I have heard of problems associated with a small litter with one or two pups, mainly being socialization problems. But what about the opposite, if a pup comes from an extremely large litter of 10 or more, is there the same kind of worries or other problems that might be associated with a large litter?

There are more problems associated with singleton litters and duets, I think. Bite inhibition, dog aggression, overly abundent self esteem, etc...

With large litters, or litters where there are definite temperamental differences, it can be good idea to separate them into "like" groups at 6+ weeks of age in order to keep some of the pups from getting the crap beaten out of them. I've found this to be true more so with the malinut litters I've whelped, although I did place one of the pups from my last litter a few days earlier than the rest because he was starting to get the brunt of the crap the brassier pups dished out.

I've found the easiest way to inhibit food guarding once my pups are able to crunch the kibble is to toss it around for them to forage. They're so busy hunting and gathering (also good for building the nose and hunt drive!) they don't worry about each other. It's REALLY fun to watch, too.

[AngelBunny]

Originally Posted by poohbearsmom

...With large litters, or litters where there are definite temperamental differences, it can be good idea to separate them into "like" groups at 6+ weeks of age in order to keep some of the pups from getting the crap beaten out of them....

I've never bred a litter of anything and have no intention of ever doing so, thus, I'm interested in your insights as a breeder into a comment I've heard.

I heard it's a good idea to frequently break up litters as the puppies get older into different batches of differing numbers of puppies. One of the reasons for this is to change the pecking order.

Thus, all the puppies find out what it's like to be at different places in the totem pole and every puppy's role/importance changes. This gives shyer puppies a chance to lead and bolder puppies pause because no puppy's role is fixed due to stable, predictable group dynamics.

Could you please speak to this? It makes sense to me, but I'm not a breeder.

[frontierrots]

Originally Posted by poohbearsmom

With large litters, or litters where there are definite temperamental differences, it can be good idea to separate them into "like" groups at 6+ weeks of age in order to keep some of the pups from getting the crap beaten out of them. I've found this to be true more so with the malinut litters I've whelped,
:

If I ever had a litter like that, I'd not be breeding that bitch again. Pups should not be aggressively fighting and if they are, it's not a temperament I'd want to be reproducing again. I did have one Shiba male pup like that years ago and I neutered him and placed him despite him being a perfect physical specimen that would have easily finished. I'd be horrified if I had a Rottweiler of that ilk

THE most important thing no matter the litter size is that they are being extensively handled, given extensive individual attention, fed in crates starting at 7 weeks and sleeping in crates starting at 8 weeks

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by AngelBunny

]I heard it's a good idea to frequently break up litters as the puppies get older into different batches of differing numbers of puppies. One of the reasons for this is to change the pecking order.

Thus, all the puppies find out what it's like to be at different places in the totem pole and every puppy's role/importance changes. This gives shyer puppies a chance to lead and bolder puppies pause because no puppy's role is fixed due to stable, predictable group dynamics.
Could you please speak to this? It makes sense to me, but I'm not a breeder.

You kind of hit the nail on the head, AngelBunny.

The mal x pit litter I whelped (13pups) was especially rambuncious... we started separating them at about 6 weeks. The mal litters at 49 days or so, into smaller groups (12pups, 13 pups - yes mals reproduce like coyote!).

I've not seen a rottie litter fight like a pitti or AB litter will (the AB litter literally ATE the pigrails in the whelping box, too!), but even in a very consistent litter, as my last litter was, there will be sibling rivalry; there are the "bruts", the "invisible pups", the "crybabies", the "bolder", "the more docile" with their siblings, etc... and for this reason, a breeder who really understands the importance of proper imprinting will take the necessary steps to ensure that all is well, and each pup has the chance to fulfill it's potential, as well as take the steps to prevent unwanted behaviors from developing. What the puppy buyer does afterwards is up to them.

Extensive handling by humans, and the separation/imprinting to independence is a given, but only has a little to do with the Canula's question.

[targonrotts]

i have had litters of 2 and 13.
no difference in temperament outcome.
as long as handled, socialized and at about 7 weeks or so, i start to individual crate, if possible to ease in the housebreaking/crating training.
i haven't had an issue of a pup being too aggressive, they usually play, mind their own while exploring, and at feeding time they eat fast, but no fighting over food.

the only difference i have had was less clean up with smaller litter;)

[frontierrots]

I have never had a Rottweiler litter where any pup was the picked on victim or the nasty bully. I would consider that abnormal for the breed if I did. They do play rough and when things get too wild everyone gets put to bed for some down time but that's it. They don't fight over kibble and when I feed raw I feed them crated (after 7 weeks everyone is crated to eat alone anyway)

Learning dog language skills and bite inhibition is very important (for dogs of any breed) and if the pups have to be seperated due to aggression then they are unable to learn these things properly. Those are not lines I would want to be deal with.

Even in Shibas where this is accepted (bullies and picked ons and seperations) I don't put up with it and will not use for breeding any pup that displayed such a personality and choose totally different partners for the bitch for her next breeding. If she produces it again she is spayed

[Canula2000]

I am little confused by the replies...some said the breeder should take extra care in helping the litter so a pup can be its best and others feel no extra care is needed?

I really only have little experience...I raised a litter of 6 whelped by a rescued mom dog from the shelter, so I understand the hard work of helping raise a litter. And the shelter dog was young and didn't understand how to raise the pups so I had to step in alot...by the time the pups were 8 weeks I thought I knew each pup very well, and could tell them all apart by 6 weeks without collars.

My friend recently pulled a pregnant dog from the shelter and she had a litter of 13 pups, they are now 4 weeks old. I worry about how she can possibly place all the pups appropriately seeing how she has double the amount of puppies, all with their personalities. Could she mistake one pups personality because it is being held back by all the other puppies? Also, as someone stated could being from a large litter create food and toy aggression?

[poohbearsmom]

My main interests lie in temperament and behavior, and puppy development, so I am a complete stickler about paying a lot of attention to what's going on with each pup as an individual, and tend to keep copious notes even before they are really turned on in the brain....notations about sleeping arrangements, teat wars, reactions to biosensor and various other stimuli, etc... I find it simply fascinating to watch the pups develop, and in going over my notes, I can later go back and see how my observations panned out.

Care should be taken to ensure that each and every pup has very good experiences, the proper kinds of mild stresses, etc... and that's all I've really said in this thread.

As long as there are no horrifying imprints, then consciencious breeders do what they've learned to do over time, and all is usually well. Nature is paramount, nurture adds [or subtracts] from that.

And for goodness sake! I'm not talking about separating pups so that they do not get the proper dog/dog socialization they need between 4-6 weeks, but in the larger litters and in the "wilder" breeds I've whelped/seen as youngsters, it is common practice to separate them into various groups once the critical canine socialization period is over with to help ensure that no pup ends up as the whipping post. The dog will be what the pup starts out as, but we might as well give each and every one of them the best possible start, since they have no say so in this to begin with.

I tend to subscribe to the practices that many mondio/serious working breeders do. IMHO, it only helps all the pups in the long run. The stressers and stimuli we throw at the pups we do simply to ensure "bomb proof" temperaments later in life. If it can help a malinois, it certainly won't hurt a rottweiler.