How to tell a COE breeder from a BYB?

[Kev]

Here's an example of an email you could get by posting a warning on kijiji to tell people to not buy a Dog from anyone offering them there...

Here is my ad on kijiji

If your looking for a Rottweiler Puppy then please don't buy from breeders who advertise here, they are not ethical breeders. They are mostly back yard breeders who are only interested in the money not the breed. If you wish to buy a puppy regardless of breed then go to the Canadian Kennel Club's website and look for a breeder there or get a copy of the mag. "Dogs in Canada". Back yard breeders and puppy mills need to be stopped and by using them you are only contributing to the problem of unstable, ill and poorly breed dogs. A Rottweiler should never be bread unless they are over two years of age and have OFA certs. for hips, elbows, heart and eye certs. They can't get this until two years old. FYI : no dog can be put forward as "Pure" unless both the stud and the Dam are registered and the litter is registered with a recognized kennel club. Don't fall for a breeder that uses the Continental Kennel Club because this is a bogus club used by many backyard breeders/puppy mills.

Reply from BYB

First of all who the hell are you. I never got a reply from you in the first place.
Are you a breeder ?? If so you better not post another add as you did. Second of all read your ad, YOU are one of theses people posting an add on KIJIJI.
Ever heard of slander. KEEP YOUR OPINIONS TO YOURSELF. Get a life & leave people whom try to provide a pure affordable pet to the public alone. If people are dumb enough to buy a random puppy without doing reaserch on the breed & the breeder they deserve to get what ever they may get. When I buy a dog I do ALOT of resesarch on the breeder itself & get a garantee of health.
I did not appreciate your email I just received AT ALL.
I am not a backyard breeder nor a puppy mill. My pupps are raisied in my house with me , my family & my females. I screen byuers before they get a pup & trust me your attitude would defenetely result in me not replying to you. I have refused MANY people puppies based on their attitude &/or lack of knowledge on the breed. Or for wanting a guard dog. I sell pets, not show dogs, breeding dogs or guard dogs. Therefore NO PAPERS.
GET A LIFE & DO NOT REPLY TO ME ANYMORE.


Roxanne Tomlinson

[Shane]

I have no idea what kijiji is, but it was a great post and it's obvious that the truth really hurts for that BYB.

[Kev]

Originally Posted by Shane

I have no idea what kijiji is

It's a website similar to the classified section in a newspaper.

[hori]

it`s shame, I have been seeing lots a byb in kijiji lately. They are all starting to sound the same also with 10-15yrs experience raising rotts, parents are purebred but no papers, mother 140lbs, father 120 etc... people buy into this crap also. I can`t imagine anyone with any breeding experience would have a 140lb female rott????

[rottcrazed]

Some people purely want a LARGE Rottweiler, not understanding the health problems that will more than likely come with it, as well, not knowing that most people who think they have a 140lb female have either highly overestimated their dogs' weight or have a very fat dog .... way out of standard.

Seriously, you REALLY have to check out a breeder thouroughly because lots of people know how to talk the talk, but to walk the walk is a different story. Let me assure you, pet or show pups, they all come with papers if the breeder cares, and the titles and health certificates are there too.

Kristi

[TravisBlanchard]

I have to speak up in the so-called BYB's defense as I am purchasing a pup from her and feel that some people rely too heavily on pieces of paper, which do not give you a 100% guarantee that nothing will go wrong with your pup btw, and cannot as life is unpredictable. If she really was a BYB then why would she tell me about this one situation, giving me the chance to see negative things people have said about her which could potentially cause her to lose a sale? Also, I have screened many so-called COE breeders both here in Canada and the U.S. and not one of them was willing to give me a 2yr guarantee against any health problems. Many peopler offer the 2yr guarantee that the pup will pass OFA examination but none have ever offered a 2yr guarantee against health problems (in writing for those who may say she's just lying). For all of you Canadian breeders, I spoke to an American breeder who said not once in all of his time he spent at competitions from BC to Manitoba had he ever seen a Rottweiler he thought was worth breeding to, and he is a registered breeder in America. So if all registered so-called COE breeders, and only they, are to be listened to and considered when buying a pup then I guess if I were to listen to him I would't buy a pup from any local breeders. The point I'm trying to make is that yes, you do take a risk buying from a site such as Kijiji, but buying a dog these days is risky no matter what you do, you could have paid $3,000.00 for a pup from a world class breeder and then fed your dog that tainted dog food and he could have died. When dealing with life nothing is certain, and I truly believe that if you know what you are talking about and are able to screen a breeder properly, learn things about them personally as I did with the so-called BYB(not always able to be done with registered breeders or COE breeders because some operate more like a business than a caring breeder) you can avoid all the false hype and jacked up prices that are associated with so-called show dogs and dogs from Champion bloodlines. I do not wish to show my dog or try to get any points on him, I just want a companion who will love and obey me and I dont think you need a dog that costs $1,500.00 solely because it comes from a Champion sire or dam. If you get a dog, even if it is from a puppy mill or a bad home which can be just as bad if not worse than a puppy mill as so many rescue dogs come from, if you are willing to invest the time, money, and love then you can pretty much turn around any dog and make it happy and a loyal companion. I am getting my dog as a pup and I will be taking him to the vet regularly, I am going to enroll in obedience classes, and I am even going to put off getting a summer job and spend my savings just so I can be there for my pup for the first 3 or 4 months of his life, and if anything medical ever goes wrong I will do all I can to help him so in the end he will be just as healthy and happy as any dog you might get from a registered "COE" breeder and I will not have paid the extra 500 or so just for the ability to brag about how he has Champion bloodlines. Finally, the so-called BYB waited to know more about me and my knowledge of the breed, and took more notice in that knowledge than half of the registered, "COE" breeders I contacted, including the American. So yes I agree that the worst thing you can do for this and all breeds and species of animals is to help perpetuate the cycle of true BYB's and animal cruelty, but in the process of weeding them out, don't generalize and demonize every and all breeders who are trying to provide the affordable pet for the caring pet owner, because if we did I would not be getting my pup who will be one of the best taken care of dogs, bar none.

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by TravisBlanchard

I have to speak up in the so-called BYB's defense as I am purchasing a pup from her and feel that some people rely too heavily on pieces of paper, which do not give you a 100% guarantee that nothing will go wrong with your pup btw, and cannot as life is unpredictable. If she really was a BYB then why would she tell me about this one situation, giving me the chance to see negative things people have said about her which could potentially cause her to lose a sale? Also, I have screened many so-called COE breeders both here in Canada and the U.S. and not one of them was willing to give me a 2yr guarantee against any health problems. Many peopler offer the 2yr guarantee that the pup will pass OFA examination but none have ever offered a 2yr guarantee against health problems (in writing for those who may say she's just lying). For all of you Canadian breeders, I spoke to an American breeder who said not once in all of his time he spent at competitions from BC to Manitoba had he ever seen a Rottweiler he thought was worth breeding to, and he is a registered breeder in America. So if all registered so-called COE breeders, and only they, are to be listened to and considered when buying a pup then I guess if I were to listen to him I would't buy a pup from any local breeders. The point I'm trying to make is that yes, you do take a risk buying from a site such as Kijiji, but buying a dog these days is risky no matter what you do, you could have paid $3,000.00 for a pup from a world class breeder and then fed your dog that tainted dog food and he could have died. When dealing with life nothing is certain, and I truly believe that if you know what you are talking about and are able to screen a breeder properly, learn things about them personally as I did with the so-called BYB(not always able to be done with registered breeders or COE breeders because some operate more like a business than a caring breeder) you can avoid all the false hype and jacked up prices that are associated with so-called show dogs and dogs from Champion bloodlines. I do not wish to show my dog or try to get any points on him, I just want a companion who will love and obey me and I dont think you need a dog that costs $1,500.00 solely because it comes from a Champion sire or dam. If you get a dog, even if it is from a puppy mill or a bad home which can be just as bad if not worse than a puppy mill as so many rescue dogs come from, if you are willing to invest the time, money, and love then you can pretty much turn around any dog and make it happy and a loyal companion. I am getting my dog as a pup and I will be taking him to the vet regularly, I am going to enroll in obedience classes, and I am even going to put off getting a summer job and spend my savings just so I can be there for my pup for the first 3 or 4 months of his life, and if anything medical ever goes wrong I will do all I can to help him so in the end he will be just as healthy and happy as any dog you might get from a registered "COE" breeder and I will not have paid the extra 500 or so just for the ability to brag about how he has Champion bloodlines. Finally, the so-called BYB waited to know more about me and my knowledge of the breed, and took more notice in that knowledge than half of the registered, "COE" breeders I contacted, including the American. So yes I agree that the worst thing you can do for this and all breeds and species of animals is to help perpetuate the cycle of true BYB's and animal cruelty, but in the process of weeding them out, don't generalize and demonize every and all breeders who are trying to provide the affordable pet for the caring pet owner, because if we did I would not be getting my pup who will be one of the best taken care of dogs, bar none.

Please re-think what you are doing.
Read all of the stickies on the Breeding forum. Either buy a puppy from a good breeder (go to the Rottweiler Club of Canada ) website...or rescue a dog.
Don't fill the pockets of a BYB. This is nothing but a BYB...and her big "guarantee" means nothing. Do you think you will give back your puppy when it develops hip dysplasia?? Would you want another crap bred puppy from her? What if your puppy drops dead from SAS....from this BYB? is she going to give you another puppy?
We have many great breeders in Canada...you have your head filled with pure hogwash from this "so called Rottweiler experts"
BYB's don't know what they are talking about...or they would be breeding quality dogs....and would not be advertising their BYB puppies on Kiijjii.

Open up your mind...listen and learn.

Gina

[rottcrazed]

You will do as you want, but every person who buys from a BYB/Puppymiller is just adding to the problem.

You spend half the money on essentially a mutt as per LAW in Canada (unless a pup is sold with registration papers, it is NOT purebred in Canada and cannot be sold as such) and you will get what you pay for. When those vet bills come in, costing you so much more than $1000 - $1500 on a registered dog with a quarantee from healthy proven parents, you will kick yourself given you now know better .... why would you take the risk?

Please don't try to defend the indefencible - you are not going to find any takers here.

Your choice, money and heart ache - good luck.

Kristi

[TravisBlanchard]

I have to say I had a good laugh at these posts. Just because the parents were registered and given OFA ratings does not guarantee that the pup will be free of such disorders as HD or SAS. And the way you slam a breeder who doesn't have papers, is the same way that a person who has a Rottweiler from Romania or Germany can slam you for have a Canadian or American Imitation of the "real thing". Also, I did not get my information about this breed from the breeder, I researched it myself so please, keep your ignorant assumptions to yourself Gina. Just so you know where I'm coming from, there are new studies suggesting that genetics do not play the role they were once thought to play when it came to pups forming such conditions as HD. Nothing is conclusive but some suggest genetics play no role, some say only 25%, and some still believe that genetics have everything to do with it. Also there is a question as to how effective and accurate the current hip/bone screening process is, as used by the OFA. There are tests being done with a relatively new process called PennHip, and hips can be screened as early as 4 months. I agree that it is risky buying from a classsified ad such as kijiji and would not advise it to someone who has not atleast spent hours upon hours researching the breed/breeders, and contacting other breeders. And yes, if something does happen where my pup dies or has to be put down the breeder will replace my pup, it is in a written contract, but no it will not be from the same parents. I also am not trying to persuade anyone to agree with me so I couldn't care less if there "aren't any takers" this is a discussion forum and I just had to put my two sense in. Also, what would either of your comments be to someone who says their are no decent rotti's in Canada? By that registered breeder's, with plenty of Champion pups and dogs to back him up, view none of the dogs any of you possess are decent rotti's that should be bred to, and if I should listen to him as you people believe I should listen to the sticky posts on the forum then really none of you know what your talking about. So who is right? Also, what would be your explanation if, as no person can fully 100% guarantee will not happen, a dog purchased with all the proper documentation developed HD or "dropped dead from SAS" while my pup, supposed from a BYB lives a long and prosperous life with no serious health defects? In closing, I didn't appreciate your personal attacks, implying that I am not educated enough to think for myself so I listen to whatever anyone tells me (being the so-called BYB), but I guess it goes to show how ignorant and arrogant some people can actually be when they are convinced their way is the only way and they are right. In a few years some new standard or certification requirement will come out, eliminating some of the so-called, outstanding representatives for the rottweiler breed, making the current standard for a good rotti, and rottis who meet that standard, obsolete. I do appreciate the little advice that one could extract from those remarks, but I believe if you do your research, on the person as much as the breed, you can determine if they are a good breeder or if they're just out to make money, and btw, I never once was pressured to buy a pup by the breeder, while other registered breeders were trying to push me into putting down a deposit. I realize that there is a chance I may regret going with this breeder, but then again you can get a pup from the best parents and still have something go wrong so really, what kind of sure fire way is there to guarantte 100% that your rotti will be healthy and nothing will happen to it?

[AngelBunny]

Before you buy that BYB's product, TravisBlanchard, get involved in Rottie rescue.

Give yourself 6 month's worth of voluteering in rescue.

Then come back here and tell us if you still feel the same way.

The position you have now is based on ignorance and lack of experience.

[harleychik66]

To TravisBlanchard- If you are that set on getting a BYB dog then please rescue one. There are far too many wonderful dogs in shelters/rescues that are deserving good homes.

Don't make the problem worse by buying from a BYB and lining the pockets of people who could really care less about the breed. Yes many of these people talk a good game about how they care, but if that were the case they would be doing far more to better the breed than just allowing their two "nice" dogs to have puppies.

And please use paragraphs, it make reading the posts much easier.

[Nishasmom]

Originally Posted by TravisBlanchard

I have to speak up in the so-called BYB's defense as I am purchasing a pup from her and feel that some people rely too heavily on pieces of paper, which do not give you a 100% guarantee that nothing will go wrong with your pup btw, and cannot as life is unpredictable.

Of course you can never 100% guarantee a healthy puppy. But you can try your hardest, by making sure your dogs have all proper health guarantees. Most genetic illnesses can be detected through special testing; if the mother and father have cleared, as well as their parents (and so on) the chances of your puppy having heart failure or HD drastically fall...in fact they fall so much the breeders are willing to guarantee the puppies for life! And if they do get sick, willing to pay for treatments ($$$$$)...and also, retire their 'breeding stock'.

Also, I have screened many so-called COE breeders both here in Canada and the U.S. and not one of them was willing to give me a 2yr guarantee against any health problems. Many peopler offer the 2yr guarantee that the pup will pass OFA examination but none have ever offered a 2yr guarantee against health problems

then you are calling the wrong breeders. A dog should be guaranteed against genetic disorders for life. Now if your dog falls and breaks his hip...of course, that has nothing to do with breeding.

The point I'm trying to make is that yes, you do take a risk buying from a site such as Kijiji, but buying a dog these days is risky no matter what you do, you could have paid $3,000.00 for a pup from a world class breeder and then fed your dog that tainted dog food and he could have died.

First, for a pet quality dog...even from the best breeders in the world, $3000 is outrageous! You can get a health guaranteed, pet quality puppy for $800-$1500.
Second....the whole accidental death thing confuses me...what does this have to do about breeders?

I do not wish to show my dog or try to get any points on him, I just want a companion who will love and obey me and I dont think you need a dog that costs $1,500.00 solely because it comes from a Champion sire or dam.

You do not need to pay anything in order to get a dog that loves and obeys you. The issue here is, what if you buy a dog that loves and obeys you...then you have to euthanize him at 18 months because of severely displastic hips. .

If you get a dog, even if it is from a puppy mill or a bad home which can be just as bad if not worse than a puppy mill as so many rescue dogs come from, if you are willing to invest the time, money, and love then you can pretty much turn around any dog and make it happy and a loyal companion.

yes, you can make most any dog into a well behaved and loyal dog...but that does not mean that he will live a long, healthy pain free life.

I am getting my dog as a pup and I will be taking him to the vet regularly, I am going to enroll in obedience classes, and I am even going to put off getting a summer job and spend my savings just so I can be there for my pup for the first 3 or 4 months of his life, and if anything medical ever goes wrong I will do all I can to help him so in the end he will be just as healthy and happy as any dog you might get from a registered "COE" breeder and I will not have paid the extra 500 or so just for the ability to brag about how he has Champion bloodlines.

Taking your dog to the vet does not prevent HD, heart failure, joint disease, or eye disease...all of which are very common in our breed...and can be prevented through careful testing and breeding. Sometimes no amount of $$ in the world can fix a dog .

Finally, the so-called BYB waited to know more about me and my knowledge of the breed, and took more notice in that knowledge than half of the registered, "COE" breeders I contacted, including the American.

because they want your money. most COE breeders have waiting lists...and are often times busy with their dogs (showing, whelping, training, testing)...so they may not have all that time to discuss puppies at that very second.

Originally Posted by TravisBlanchard

Just because the parents were registered and given OFA ratings does not guarantee that the pup will be free of such disorders as HD or SAS.

umm...actually it does, if done correctly (multi generations)

And the way you slam a breeder who doesn't have papers, is the same way that a person who has a Rottweiler from Romania or Germany can slam you for have a Canadian or American Imitation of the "real thing".

No one "slams" dogs due to the country they were born in.

Just so you know where I'm coming from, there are new studies suggesting that genetics do not play the role they were once thought to play when it came to pups forming such conditions as HD. Nothing is conclusive but some suggest genetics play no role, some say only 25%, and some still believe that genetics have everything to do with it.

please...list the sources to this information

Also there is a question as to how effective and accurate the current hip/bone screening process is, as used by the OFA. There are tests being done with a relatively new process called PennHip, and hips can be screened as early as 4 months.

PennHipp is more than 15 years old
Frequently Asked Questions

And yes, if something does happen where my pup dies or has to be put down the breeder will replace my pup, it is in a written contract, but no it will not be from the same parents..... I never once was pressured to buy a pup by the breeder, while other registered breeders were trying to push me into putting down a deposit. I realize that there is a chance I may regret going with this breeder, but then again you can get a pup from the best parents and still have something go wrong so really, what kind of sure fire way is there to guarantte 100% that your rotti will be healthy and nothing will happen to it?

You may not want a pup from the same breeder after the heartache she/he caused you the first time
If indeed you did talk with COE breeders, perhaps they were pressuring you b/c they have other interested parties??

I truly wish you the best of luck. I know many byb rotties who lived a long, healthy life...but I know many who didn't . Good luck in whatever you decide, but please be cautious.

Please keep in mind that MANY of the members here have purchased a dog from a BYB. Though they love(d) their dogs, they wish they had chosen a different breeder. Many of the activities you see yourself doing with your pup may not be possible if he has HD or heart issues.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by TravisBlanchard

Just so you know where I'm coming from, there are new studies suggesting that genetics do not play the role they were once thought to play when it came to pups forming such conditions as HD. Nothing is conclusive but some suggest genetics play no role, some say only 25%, and some still believe that genetics have everything to do with it.

Would you be so kind as to post the links to these studies? In particular, the ones that conclude that genetics do not play a role in hip dysplasia? It would be much appreciated.

Originally Posted by TravisBlanchard

...you can get a pup from the best parents and still have something go wrong so really, what kind of sure fire way is there to guarantte 100% that your rotti will be healthy and nothing will happen to it?

Well, I tend to see a striking similarity between making major purchases (such as a puppy that will be in your care for a decade or more, hopefully) and crossing the street. My chances of crossing the street without incident improve dramatically if I simply remember to look both ways before crossing. My chances of purchasing a healthy puppy are similarly greatly improved if I look into the health history of the lines my puppy is from (registration papers give you the info you need to research this) and I look to make sure the sire and dam have been cleared of afflictions common to the breed by way of OFA/CERF/Cardiologist certifications. And I will ESPECIALLY make sure to "look both ways before crossing" when my purchase involves a living thing (a puppy!) who will be impacted by the genetic health of his/her heritage.

There will always be fools among us, but that doesn't mean we have to join them.

[AndOne707]

Originally Posted by kilasmamix3

I didn't know about that... I just kept searching for breeders and asking other people around. I guess next rottie i get in a WHILE since i already have 2 little mosters actually sleeping together on Tatiana's bed sharing it. Aww, haha how cute. Anyways, back on topic, since i guess i don't really have to find another breeder since i could just call mine up always.. Haha, better luck next time i guess.. maybe i could do that for a pitbull breeder in a few years when my guy goes to the bridge.. /: Or maybe i'll just stick to rescueing and fostering (:

Dezaree

it's a lot easier to find a good breeder or COE breeder among the rottie community, then finding an APTB breeder. At least Cali is infested with a lot of BYB and the entire "blue" bully mentality, just because a dog is a certain color it doesn't guarantee anything.
In my search when i was considering in purchasing an APBT puppy, only found 2 breeders here in cali (non of them near my area) n 2 out of state. I had APBT in the past, n at that time i was considering another one. With the entire BSL, it just makes things a bit more difficult, since it mainly has targeted APBT as a primary among other breedes or any breed with similarities; due to all the media and in responsability with all the uneducated owners about the breed.
Good luck!

[Dimitri]

never stop asking questions and if you feel that something is amiss then move along to the next person on your list. a good COE breeder is worth their weight, while a shadier one would be slick and shady not answering questions or giving you excuses.