Newbie question about buying from Germany

[RottsNScotts]

Winnie22 - unless one wants to DNA the pups and parents (who may or may not already be done), there is no guarantee of this in ANY breeder! Over and over it comes down to the breeder's ethics and the puppy buyers research and the relationship they have developed while waiting for the litter.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by gilby00

ps, just because the parents don't have HD/ED doesn't mean the puppy won't. HD/ED are recessive gene, it can pop out anytime, you have a 1/4 shot at getting HD/ED even with breeding 2 excellent rated dogs

First time I've seen this statistic. Where did you get it from?

[gilby00]

Originally Posted by Skip

First time I've seen this statistic. Where did you get it from?

it's straight genetics, if you do a genetic cube you'll get the ratio's

[frontierrots]

HD is not straight genetics though because there are variables. SOME lines are VERY strong for good hips and almost never produce a fail or even a fair. If they do produce a fail it is often just a unilateral mild

Other lines produce hip ratings all over the park- all the way from excellent to severe HD because the lines are not "strong" for good hips.

If I look at a litter where several dogs have been tested from it and I see a wide variety of ratings I think twice about using that line. If on the other hand all I see are goods and excellents and maybe a couple milds or fairs then the picture is totally different.

With HD it is almost more important to look at littermates of the parents, grandparents etc as it is to look for multi generations

[spidey]

Originally Posted by gilby00

it's straight genetics, if you do a genetic cube you'll get the ratio's

HD is a polygenetic trait. What you are talking about is a straightforward, single-gene Mendelian recessive trait, which is not what HD is.

[gilby00]

in talking about ratio's and dominate/recessive genes it is straight genetics, if you do medelian genetic cubes you'll have the odds, granted the odds are higher if you have multi generations of HD, but even with two fairs you could have good hips, I wouldn't want to buck the odds, but it's possible, just like breeding two excellents, you still can throw a bad hip.

[AndOne707]

IMHO
I would never purchase a pup whom parents i cannot see in person. Now n days and with the wonderful power of the internet, anything and everything can be said about any kind of dogs.
I have had some encounters from "suppostly" good breeders with show dogs, whom dont resamble what you expected from the pixs they posted on line. Or cannot provided the parents of the pups whom they advertise. It's scary if you don't do your research before purchasing a pup now n days.

[AngelBunny]

Originally Posted by AndOne707

...I would never purchase a pup whom parents i cannot see in person...

Most good breeders don’t own both bitch and stud dog. Having both parents onsite would make me wonder if the force behind the breeding was convenience.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by gilby00

in talking about ratio's and dominate/recessive genes it is straight genetics, if you do medelian genetic cubes you'll have the odds, granted the odds are higher if you have multi generations of HD, but even with two fairs you could have good hips, I wouldn't want to buck the odds, but it's possible, just like breeding two excellents, you still can throw a bad hip.

So then granted, the odds will be lower if you have multi generations of good hips. Again, where did you get this 1 out of 4 number?

[Skip]

One of these days I will get a pup from germany, but I would not do it unless I had a really good relationship with the breeder, and I would need to hear a lot of success stories from references here in the states. I would still want to go there to pick out the pup.

[AndOne707]

Originally Posted by AngelBunny

Most good breeders don’t own both bitch and stud dog. Having both parents onsite would make me wonder if the force behind the breeding was convenience.

even so.... IF you plan to sell pups, at least on my end i would love to see or have an idea what the pup might looked like..
I have been surprise several times with how a pup turns out to be (back in my young age loll)
specially when u don't know the breeder quite well. If the breeder happens to be someone that has been highly recommended by "X" person or you happen to know, than i can understand.

[gilby00]

Originally Posted by Skip

So then granted, the odds will be lower if you have multi generations of good hips. Again, where did you get this 1 out of 4 number?

I got the number from doing a mendelian cube. Basically if you do a square and divide into 4ths/8ths/16ths squares depending on how many generations you'll then multiply them and get your ratio ie...8/32 or 1/4 reduced.

[gilby00]

I know a lot of breeders who have both sire/dam does this make them bad? No it just means they have both parents, doesn't mean the dogs are worse, maybe the breeder likes qualities of both parents and the combo would be good, it doesn't mean it's out of conveinance.

[montana]

I know the breeder we got our pup from is now leaving tails on about half of her puppies I believe my dh said. She also has German bloodlines. We got pick of the litter, nice quality dog, and paid less than the amount you're quoting.

I think it's risky to purchase out of the country for such an important thing!

[rottcrazed]

I know a lot of breeders who have both sire/dam does this make them bad? No it just means they have both parents, doesn't mean the dogs are worse, maybe the breeder likes qualities of both parents and the combo would be good, it doesn't mean it's out of conveinance.

It would only be 'bad' if the breeder was using the same 2 dogs for multiple litters, or only their own stud dog on all of their bitches repeatedly.

I can see a breeder using their own stud dog on their own bitch(es) ONCE, and if the litter was successful in working/show arenas and healthy after their 2 year clearances, maybe repeating the breeding ONCE .... but too many 'breeders' have a male, a female and breed the 2 over and over ... for what? Puppies, aka MONEY and yes, the convenience of both parents there (no stud fees).

Kristi