East Coast Stud dogs

[frontierrots]

ah but Larry... only a VERY SMALL minority of people here in the US have the narrow elitist view that the ONLY work suitable to test a Rottweilers trainability, intelligence and temperament is Sch.

I like Sch, have nothing against it it's just not MY thing (nor my pocketbooks)

Any titling performance venue tests a dog's intelligence, trainability and temperament. HERE IN THE US dogs (all breeds but especially dogs like Rottweilers) must be able to have a public safe temperament and almost every venue has an aspect that proves that.

personally Larry the last thing on MY criteria list when choosing a breeding dog is how hard can it bite and can it take a courage attack. If a dog has a Sch title then thats some extra frosting but it is not the be all to end all and the minority view such as yourself who feel it is need to stop berating people who don't do Sch but dare to breed Rottweilers <sigh>

[fbkeays]

Two years ago I had the pleasure of meeting a woman from Germany that does schH.... with her rough collie. I saw his score book- impressive scores and multiple V's in protect at the III level. I was visiting a friend who breeds performance and show rough collies. This woman came from Germany to pick up her next show/working dog.
I was stunned that someone would do schH with a collie. She told me that collies were her breed and that she enjoyed doing "sport" with them. In Germany "sport" is anything that isn't conformation. Her options in dog sports in Germany is pretty much limited to schH, tho agility is starting to take off.
In Germany, anyone that does anything with their dogs other then conformation is pretty much doing schH. She didn't think it was odd at all that she did schH with her rough collies. In fact she thought it was odd that *I* thought it was odd.
Rottweilers were the all purpose farm dog. No one ever thought to do schH or protection with them until the early 1900's. Doing schH with the rottweiler is a very recent addition to a very old breed. If anything, schH has changed the breed from what it was.

[JoJo]

when choosing a breeding dog is how hard can it bite and can it take a courage attack.

Per the FCI standards, then if this rottweiler can't abide to a courage test (attack, your words) then this is NOT a stable rottweiler. I would think this has nothing to do with ScH at all. I agree with you that being able to partake in Sch or has the lineage backing it would be icing on the cake. But it has everything to do with being in STANDARD, meaning having the proper temperament. Am I wrong in this? My other train of thought on this is also that if breeders continue to NOT breed for that "hard" or "strong" temperament, then eventually they will just water down the breed further and create weak nerves and unsafe dogs. People's thoughts on that? Otherwise WHY continue breeding for a ROTTWEILER? Find some other breed that has that soft, mild manor temperament. JMO

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Park/5378/fcistandard.html
F.C.I.-Standard No. 147/16.01.1996/GB

Rottweiler

Utilization: Companion, Security and Working dog

Rottweiler breeders aim at a dog of abundant strength, black coated with clearly defined rich tan markings, whose powerful appearance does not lack nobility and which is exceptionally well suited to being a companion, security and working dog.

General Appearance -

The Rottweiler is a medium to large size, stalwart dog, neither heavy nor light and neither leggy nor weedy. His correctly proportioned, compact and powerful build leads to the conclusion of great strength, maneuverability and endurance.



Behavior and Character -

Being good natured, placid and fond of children in basic disposition, he is very devoted, obedient, biddable and eager to work. His appearance is natural and rustic, his behavior self assured, steady and fearless. He reacts to his surroundings with great alertness.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by fbkeays

Rottweilers were the all purpose farm dog. No one ever thought to do schH or protection with them until the early 1900's. Doing schH with the rottweiler is a very recent addition to a very old breed.

If anything, schH has changed the breed from what it was.

In pondering this topic, this is what I wondered.....Schutzhund was developed for the GSD when they weren't needed for herding any longer, not for the Rottweiler. I see over and over again posts written by those in participate in Schutzhund to the effect that "if you want to be competitive in Schutzhund, get a GSD or a Mallinois...Rottweilers can't compete with them". So those who think this is the "true" test of a Rottweiler must want to change the breed, would they not?

Also, anyone with any knowledge of obedience (especially at the Utility level) or agility, or even the less versatile sports of carting and flyball certainly appreciates the WORK done by the dogs.

[Sportdog]

I would like to know who has any producing stud dogs on the east coast that have working titles?

[toobad]

This is a very good thread. Getting somewhat off topic but good.

Kinda neat to see people who think a little like I do. I'm another who believes the standard was written long before schutzhund was introduced and schutzhund shouldn't be the one great test of this breed.

The dogs were bred to PULL CARTS , HERD SHEEP, GUARD BELONGINGS. Chances are probably good at that time that MOST of the dogs would bite and protect if someone other than their master was messing with their sheep, carts, whatever. I'm sure children were bitten but that was probably the sacrafice they made to have protection they needed.

I'm thinking the dogs were almost wild and it was the Germans who started watering them down so they could be used as pets AND workers. I could be totally wrong but that is my take on it.

Larry seems pretty smart and seems to care about the breed but he like some others only believe what they want to believe. He said earlier he wouldn't use a Rottweiler to pull a cart / weight pulling because it would make them look unlike the breed is supposed to look. I don't understand ????

THEY WERE BRED TO PULL CARTS , carts full of weight

Standard says POWERFUL LOOKING. Todays best working dogs are NOT powerful looking at all, they are smaller and very agile.( there are exceptions Woton is a great example ) When they are not they usually don't make great working dogs. As stated above, Rotts can't hang with German Shepherds, Malinois especially when they are medium to large and powerful looking. Go figure ! So who is right ? Is it working type people hurting the breed and breeding dogs out of standard or is it conformation people with large powerful looking dogs who are breeding dogs who do not fit the standard ?

People trash talk me because I want to breed two healthy, conformationally correct dogs who can get along with people but don't have a Schutzhund title but could easily do what they were originally bred for .... pull weight and keep people out of my home .... on looks alone

I think that is a big part of the problem and why there are no perfect dogs. People are going in two different directions and won't admit it.

[frontierrots]

Originally Posted by Sportdog

I would like to know who has any producing stud dogs on the east coast that have working titles?

I have spoken a couple times with the woman who owns Benno vh Falconsnest he is a good show dog and has Larry's idea of working titles :) He is in NY She is a nice person to talk to and Benno seems nice too

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Sportdog

I would like to know who has any producing stud dogs on the east coast that have working titles?

my dog came from east coast although we cant post the breeders names his sire is kairo von der burg dinklage

[lblax]

Originally Posted by frontierrots

ah but Larry... only a VERY SMALL minority of people here in the US have the narrow elitist view that the ONLY work suitable to test a Rottweilers trainability, intelligence and temperament is Sch.

I like Sch, have nothing against it it's just not MY thing (nor my pocketbooks)

Any titling performance venue tests a dog's intelligence, trainability and temperament. HERE IN THE US dogs (all breeds but especially dogs like Rottweilers) must be able to have a public safe temperament and almost every venue has an aspect that proves that.

personally Larry the last thing on MY criteria list when choosing a breeding dog is how hard can it bite and can it take a courage attack. If a dog has a Sch title then thats some extra frosting but it is not the be all to end all and the minority view such as yourself who feel it is need to stop berating people who don't do Sch but dare to breed Rottweilers <sigh>

personally diane i have nothing against you breeding your soft dogs and i oersonly dont care that you compete them against collies and poodles and labs just dont try to pass your dogs off as you do on your site as a true rottweiler advertise them as what they are nice healthy pets and nothing more

[lblax]

Originally Posted by frontierrots

I have spoken a couple times with the woman who owns Benno vh Falconsnest he is a good show dog and has Larry's idea of working titles :) He is in NY She is a nice person to talk to and Benno seems nice too

maybe someone should go read the adrk or the usrc breed suitability test just to see what is required and should a coe breeders dogs at least accomplish that??

[IJF1]

Originally Posted by frontierrots

I was told yesterday that a "world class" Sch dog would have an "edge" to it (which I read as sharp) and as such would NOT be safe in the situations I require a dog to be (described above) and thus no serious Sch person would have a recommendation for me because I do not want the right temperament

And yes I know I'll have to compromise somewhere but it is not likely to be in the health requirements

A couple of comments.:

A top level SchH dog does not have to be sharp. Many are very steady and all should have rock steady nerves which make them safe in almost any environment. They may not be very social, but that is not necessary IMO.

The dogs you described earlier (can't be trusted in public) just sound like nervebags.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by IJF1

A couple of comments.:

A top level SchH dog does not have to be sharp. Many are very steady and all should have rock steady nerves which make them safe in almost any environment. They may not be very social, but that is not necessary IMO.

The dogs you described earlier (can't be trusted in public) just sound like nervebags.

your absolutly right on the money here. most people confuse the sharpness and edge with courage and drive when in reality its actually poor training and bad nerves. right now i have 2 dogs a gsd and a rott both are good at the bite work and have lots of drive ive pulled the gsd from training for the simple reason she worked with this edge and sharpness not for the love of doing it and the love of the fight she while is social has to be watched when strangers are around she is very controllable . on the other hand the rott at a year old is a very serious dog in the bite work and everything else he does he does it for the love of the fight but he simply likes everyone he meets thats the tempermant that should be trained anyone that tells you that a sch. dog needs to be sharp and edgy is only making excuses for the dogs they have trained

[RotDocPA]

Personally I think in any working breed you are going to have dogs suited for different things. Larger dogs selected for pulling and smaller ones selected for herding. That's OK. What is not Ok is weak, nervous or very sharp dogs in todays society. My recent puppy shopping has shown that finding a strong dog but not sharp one isn't necessarily easy. Some of the feedback on very top working lines(several kennels, not just one) was not great. Comments included very sharp and reactive. I don't believe that is breed correct but these lines perform well in schutzhund. A number of American show lines have lost strong nerves but perhaps the breed has been weak for a long time. Before we get off the stud dog issue here are a couple that I think are nice: Ravenscrest Alchemist and BISS Rudez and Let Sparks Fly.

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by RotDocPA

Before we get off the stud dog issue here are a couple that I think are nice: Ravenscrest Alchemist and BISS Rudez and Let Sparks Fly.

Burton (Ravenscrest The Alchemist) has NO working titles, nothing....not even obedience. He's a beautiful dog, but his whole life has been being shown.
Just looked at their website, he's got HIC, CGC, and TDI.

Gina

[lblax]

Originally Posted by RotDocPA

A number of American show lines have lost strong nerves but perhaps the breed has been weak for a long time..

i find that dogs from strong show lines (of any breed) seldom have strong nerve and even the worst of worst back yard breedings if you can pull together a pedigree usually has several show dogs through out the ped.