East Coast Stud dogs

[JoJo]

I never said you bred unsafe dogs. Where did you get that from? I'm just very confused on the fact that you require so much from the stud dog, that you refuse to look at your own bitch. You are the one who as SamAli states, posts so vehemently advocates strong health in our dogs, that you don't want that also in your bitch. This is where I'm totally confused. Yes cancer runs deep in our breed. Yet there are dogs (good, unproven, not the flavor of the week) that our out there that have lineage that are free from cancer or at least longevity. Why wouldn't you consider starting with a new line, one that could be cancer free?

I'm playing devils advocate here Diane. You are asking for the impossible out of the stud dog, why not ask for the impossible out of the bitch? To me, it's a double standard that our breed can't afford. Let's not have tunnel vision. I would hope that breeders today would want to strive for the whole package. That means a litter that has the proper temperament along with working ability, plus the main factor of being a family member. Isn't that what the standard states?

[akemo'sroyalflush]

Actually, jojo I agree. I am buying a male show quality pup. If he gets his health certs, championship and obedience, don't know about Sch yet but a possibility. The bitch that is bred to him will have to compliment my stud. Of course champioships, working titles and health clearences are wanted, but only the health clearences and maybe a TT and a CD or BH would be required. I will see what is lacking in my boy and will turn people down if it doesn't completethe puzzle. Pedigrees will also have to be studied unless just a complete outcross. This is just my 2 cents of what will happen if I end up with a supposed gem.


Chris

[Carol Burke]

On the subject of temperament, the world class SchH dog that is over the top does not have correct temperament IMO and it is really sad that so many people feel they need a nut to succeed in SchH. I have a friend who had an imported SchH dog that he used in his capacity as a police officer. This dog was tough as nails when he was on, once he was off duty he was a family pet, acepted strangers to his house, took care of my friend's children, etc. To me this is correct temperament and to settle for less then this is wrong.

[frontierrots]

Originally Posted by JoJo

I never said you bred unsafe dogs. Where did you get that from? I'm just very confused on the fact that you require so much from the stud dog, that you refuse to look at your own bitch. You are the one who as SamAli states, posts so vehemently advocates strong health in our dogs, that you don't want that also in your bitch. This is where I'm totally confused. Yes cancer runs deep in our breed. Yet there are dogs (good, unproven, not the flavor of the week) that our out there that have lineage that are free from cancer or at least longevity. Why wouldn't you consider starting with a new line, one that could be cancer free?

I'm playing devils advocate here Diane. You are asking for the impossible out of the stud dog, why not ask for the impossible out of the bitch? To me, it's a double standard that our breed can't afford. Let's not have tunnel vision. I would hope that breeders today would want to strive for the whole package. That means a litter that has the proper temperament along with working ability, plus the main factor of being a family member.

you said

OK Diane, then I will stand by my words, you then are not breeding the "whole" rottweiler. From what I've learned on this forum, the rottweiler is a versatile dog and if bred correctly to the standard, then it can live in a family structure very comfortably. So on that note, this novice rest her case.

that's where I got that.

My line has a VERY low (compared to the breed) cancer rate. My male (Annie's sire) is 9 1/2 and no signs of slowing down, his dam was almost 12, her sister was over 13 and that bitches sibs and children have lived to 12+. Not sure why I'd dump what I have and start with an unknown.. It is very difficult to find truthful people in our breed that "fess up" to the failings as well as positives in their lines

I am not asking the impossible, I am asking for what I ALREADY have. If I have it, someone else must too!

My bitch is cardiac echo'd with a low velocity, ex hips, clear elbows, eyes Cerf'd is a good citizen, a model family dog, a very intelligent training partner, safe in public yet still alerts us to the questionable. She has a fairly low use pedigree. Looks like a proper Rottweiler too :)

I guess we just are not understanding what each other are asking/saying

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by Carol Burke

On the subject of temperament, the world class SchH dog that is over the top does not have correct temperament IMO and it is really sad that so many people feel they need a nut to succeed in SchH. I have a friend who had an imported SchH dog that he used in his capacity as a police officer. This dog was tough as nails when he was on, once he was off duty he was a family pet, acepted strangers to his house, took care of my friend's children, etc. To me this is correct temperament and to settle for less then this is wrong.

My point exactly, and very well said.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by frontierrots

.........

I was quoting what a Sch person told me yesterday that a high end Sch will NOT be family suitable and that for sure is NOT what I want to breed

As in anything, I would not necessarily stretch one person's Sch opinion to cover ALL high end Sch dogs. I've personally seen quite a few that were VERY family suitable. The above statement kind of reminds me of the old saying about "throwing the baby out with the bath water".

[JoJo]

I guess we just are not understanding what each other are asking/saying

That sure is obvious! Believe me, I'm not trying to beat you up on this. I'm trying to have an understanding of what a true rottweiler should be and what our breeders of today are striving for. And most importantly of what you are asking for. Since you started this thread.

It is said on this forum over and over again, that a breeder (COE) breeds in the standard. What Carol has stated is what I so inadequetly couldn't state. A solid temperament is a solid temperament be it world class ScH or not. That dog is well balanced. As for health, yes we all wish for the best of both worlds, and health clearances are very important, a must! This is where we are not seeing eye to eye and probably never will. I can't state it any other way except just saying it. Why would you not want to try another line without cancer to breed to a line (that impossible stud dog that doesn't exist) to try to knock out cancer in the breed? I know this whole scenario is impossible, but do you understand what I'm trying to say? You are asking for the impossible out of a stud dog, why not out of a bitch? There's that damn double standard. What you are asking for is purity in all it's form and that my friend, does not exist, but isn't that what a COE breeder should be striving for?

[fbkeays]

JoJo, where, oh where, is that cancer free line? My first rottweiler died from lymphoma. My 11 year old Duncan is now on his 3rd cancer diagnosis and will die in a few weeks. So far my 7 year old doesn't seem to have any cancer, but 7 is a popular age for it to come out. His father is doing well at 11 without any cancer, but his mother and brother died from cancer a few years back. All three dogs are pretty much from different lines.
Could you do us all a favor that have gone broke and seen their beloved dog die from cancer a favor by telling us exactly what line is cancer free?

[RoseArbour]

It's easy to be pickier about the stud dogs. There are more stud dogs out there to choose from and they are bred more frequently than our bitches.

As a bitch owner, you have to be very picky about where you will breed your bitch. Unless you are willing to have several breeding females at any one time, your energy is devoted to trying to make the very best possible choice for a breeding partner. We have to research much deeper into the pedigree. We usually only have one or two chances to produce a great litter and the success of a breeding isn't known for years go come.

Living on the west coast, I am not familiar with "east coast" dogs unless they have offspring, or are specialled, out here. There are some older dogs out here that I really like. Unfortunately about everything I like is already related to my dogs. <smile> We'll need absolute outcrosses for any future breedings. And really, the thought tires me.

If we do as JoJo suggested (just playing along right here) then you want to find a line that has similar breedings already in play that have strong hip/elbow ratings, no history of cruciate ruptures, cancer or arthritis, has clear thinking and trainability, and oh yeah - is beautiful and structurally strong! You're better off to buy a youth dog than a puppy since it and littermates will already have preliminary health testing done including cardiac and cerf - and then be expected to spend a lot of money trying to buy a sure thing.

Or we keep working with what we already have and try to improve on every generation of dog we produce. There are very few breeders we can say truly have their own "line". These breeders have produced what they are looking for repeatedly by having bred back into established lines and locking in a distinct look or type.

I'm rambling. :-)
Carlie

[JoJo]

That's my point fbkeays, when a person asks for the impossible, then that is what you get, the impossible. In other words, what's good for the gander should be good for the goose.

This whole thread started off looking for the Mr. Perfect Stud muffin. Diane is looking for all these criteria, yet when push comes to shove, Diane doesn't want to hear about her own lines. I'm not saying they are bad at all. What I'm saying is that she is putting down other lines for this reason and that reason but not taking into consideration that maybe, just maybe the stud dog owner may not want to breed to her bitch because of "this reason or that reason". That train of thought can run both ways and shouldn't it? After all, isn't that what breeding is all about? To improve upon the breed? So when she is looking for her perfect stud dog, why not look for that perfect bitch too?

This is in no way a slam against Diane or to her dogs or her dogs lineage. I'm just trying to express (and what Diane is asking for) that there is no way in hell that anyone can come up with that perfect dog/bitch. Breeding within the standard, having all health clearances and temperament (which should be in the standard) then one has a better chance of achieving that goal. That's all I'm trying to say.

[moondog]

Since health clearances only cover a few conditions, I also think it's prudent to look beyond them for clues into medical issues that pop up repeatedly as a consideration prior to breeding. Of course, without disclosure by those who know, that's not an easy thing to do and even if someone thinks they have done it, I'll bet there are quite a few "secrets" that have not been disclosed.

Longevity would be a fair "substitute" for a cancer-free certification (even though it may be cancer a dog succumbs to in the end), I'd think.....and an important thing to look for.

[frontierrots]

Originally Posted by JoJo

It is said on this forum over and over again, that a breeder (COE) breeds in the standard. What Carol has stated is what I so inadequetly couldn't state. A solid temperament is a solid temperament be it world class ScH or not. That dog is well balanced. As for health, yes we all wish for the best of both worlds, and health clearances are very important, a must! This is where we are not seeing eye to eye and probably never will. I?

and why pray tell do you think my dogs are not this?

[frontierrots]

Originally Posted by JoJo

This whole thread started off looking for the Mr. Perfect Stud muffin. Diane is looking for all these criteria, yet when push comes to shove, Diane doesn't want to hear about her own lines. I'm not saying they are bad at all. What I'm saying is that she is putting down other lines for this reason and that reason but not taking into consideration that maybe, just maybe the stud dog owner may not want to breed to her bitch because of "this reason or that reason".

ya know JoJo I'm beginning to wonder if you are having this conversation elsewhere with someone else because you keep coming up with things I never said and disregarding what I do say

For example I said

that's where I got that.

My line has a VERY low (compared to the breed) cancer rate. My male (Annie's sire) is 9 1/2 and no signs of slowing down, his dam was almost 12, her sister was over 13 and that bitches sibs and children have lived to 12+. Not sure why I'd dump what I have and start with an unknown.. It is very difficult to find truthful people in our breed that "fess up" to the failings as well as positives in their lines

I am not asking the impossible, I am asking for what I ALREADY have. If I have it, someone else must too!

My bitch is cardiac echo'd with a low velocity, ex hips, clear elbows, eyes Cerf'd is a good citizen, a model family dog, a very intelligent training partner, safe in public yet still alerts us to the questionable. She has a fairly low use pedigree. Looks like a proper Rottweiler too :)

I also said I was not looking for perfect and I have not slammed anyone's lines...

I have to say I am totally baffled by your posts

And yes Patti longevity counts a LOT. EVERY dog has to someday die of something and a dog that dies of whatever at 12 is different than a dog dying of cancer at 2

[JoJo]

What part of English don't you understand Diane? I NEVER said your dogs are ill tempered. What you are quoting is what a TRUE ROTTWEILER should be......a well balanced dog. I was stating what Carol said, and that is what the STANDARD says. Your dogs weren't even in the picture. Pray tell, why did you take it personally?

You are missing the whole boat here. You are the one who started this topic about finding that stud dog with all these bells and whistles that your require, yet when a novice (me) asks the obvious or (those questions that no one else dared to) you dance around it and take all these things personally. I'm just pointing out that once again, when you ask for the impossible, then you first need to look at what you have to offer before demanding so much of others. This goes for ALL breeders. So yes, I shouldn't be saying "you" personally, but stressing you as a generalization. So stop taking this so personally. It's not all about you. You only started a topic that should be looked at from all angles and as a novice, I'm questioning what part of breeding does the bitch play into. You made it sound like it's the stud dog that has to carry the complete burden.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by frontierrots

and why pray tell do you think my dogs are not this?

all you have to do is resurch your pedigree/look at the pictures of the litters/and what you want and expect from your dogs thats how.