East Coast Stud dogs

[frontierrots]

Originally Posted by JoJo

That's what I'm saying. But if one wants to better the breed, (that is the purpose of breeding isn't it?) why not then require the same out of the bitch? What makes one think it's only the stud dog that contributes all the good qualities? That is what makes no sense to me. As a breeder, wouldn't having that "perfect" bitch mean just as much? That's where I'm having a hard time following Diane's thought process.

and since I am not looking for perfect. I have compared my girl to the list I have and except for the one area I wish to improve on she fits it very very well. Good enough that if she were a stud dog I would be going to meet him

See not hypocritical at all :)

[JoJo]

I do not want perfect I want something less used, less health dangerous without being so sharp that the proverbial family of 4 can't live with a pup nor being so dull and dead that it is a floor ornament

OK, then please explain to us what is your definition of sharp.

[frontierrots]

sharp- a dog that the proverbial family of 4 cannot have in their home and have company over (not a hoard just a guest or a couple friends) that the dog will be friendly too when the person is introduced. A dog you cannot take to the flea market because it would view running kids or approaching strangers as a threat (not prey drive- a threat and try to bite them). A dog that cannot learn to do a stand for exam because it will bite someone

[moondog]

Originally Posted by frontierrots

The Rottweiler breed as a whole has a 70-80% rate of cancer, 1 in 8 risk of bone cancer.

1 in 8 is 12.5%. 70% is 7 in 10, 80% is 8 in 10. Big difference!

Whoops.....misread it. The difference is between all cancers and bone cancer?

[frontierrots]

Yeah that makes me crazy too but it's how the oncologists always talk about and write about it

Cancer as a whole-all types- the breed has a 70-80% risk of it

Bone cancer specifically- 1 in 8 dogs

[poohbearsmom]

There is one popular stud dog here that seems to have produced more than his share of "sharp" temperaments, along with other physical issues. Thankfully, he is not in my lines.

I have seen sharp dogs from certain working/show kennels in Germany and the Netherlands. Sadly, my two imports were PTS because of a combination of physical issues (one had severely malformed jaw, the other was a disaster orthopedically + both were very sharp, and were not safe dogs even though they were a joy for me to train [fearful/defensive and very reactive with people] temperaments.)
While a mature rottweiler should possess a certain level of defensiveness, the over reaction is not favorable in my book. I definitely agree with you in stating the importance of a well balanced temperament, and after my dog attack, I simply have no room in my life for a dog with a loose screw. Too many nice dogs out there.

Other than that, I have not seen or met that many reactive, sharp dogs. I have seen strong dogs with well balanced temperaments for the most part, but those are the types of dogs that I favor, and the type of dog I look for.

These dogs tend to possess a strong dominance with other dogs, and all have possessed same sex aggression, but they are not people aggressive to those that they are introduced properly to, and they make WONDERFUL family companions, and they do possess a natural level of protection for their territory and family.

Sometimes I think people confuse a strong dog with a dog that's over the top, which brings us back home to : are we breeding correct rottweilers, or are we watering them down so we can sell them easier and have less "liability"? (not pointing finger at you, Diane, just asking a general question for all to think about!)

There are plenty of dogs out there that can fit most of your bill, but you'll likely have to budge a little on some of your demands.

[JoJo]

Who would want to breed to a dog like that in the first place? That isn't a sound temperament nor is that description in the standard for the breed.

I again, and please don't think that I'm putting you down or your dogs, just trying to get an understanding, but why in your own words, "good enough" be just that, good enough? Why not demand just as much from the bitch as you are asking of the stud? So then in other words, you want to breed a water downed version of the Rottweiler? I would think having a working breed, one would want the most out of the breed, not just having two dogs to breed just for a family pet. I would think as a breeder you would strive for that litter that could and should do it all. Doesn't the breed standard state "good companions and likes children"? Please, someone correct me if I'm way off base here.

[frontierrots]

I was told yesterday that a "world class" Sch dog would have an "edge" to it (which I read as sharp) and as such would NOT be safe in the situations I require a dog to be (described above) and thus no serious Sch person would have a recommendation for me because I do not want the right temperament

And yes I know I'll have to compromise somewhere but it is not likely to be in the health requirements

[frontierrots]

Originally Posted by JoJo

Who would want to breed to a dog like that in the first place? That isn't a sound temperament nor is that description in the standard for the breed.

I again, and please don't think that I'm putting you down or your dogs, just trying to get an understanding, but why in your own words, "good enough" be just that, good enough? Why not demand just as much from the bitch as you are asking of the stud? So then in other words, you want to breed a water downed version of the Rottweiler? I would think having a working breed, one would want the most out of the breed, not just having two dogs to breed just for a family pet. I would think as a breeder you would strive for that litter that could and should do it all. Doesn't the breed standard state "good companions and likes children"? Please, someone correct me if I'm way off base here.

Don't overanylyze. Good enough, meaning everyone compromises somewhere in breeding dogs. Good enough meaning darn close to a perfect match

And I do demand exactly from my own that I do from a stud dog. My dogs are far from a watered down example. However if watered down means a family of 4 with parents who are dog savvy and go to training classes and work to socialize their dog and make it a good citizen should not own a "proper" Rottweiler than yes they are watered down because I think such a family should be entitled to have and enjoy the breed too, not just those who want to compete.

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by frontierrots

I was told yesterday that a "world class" Sch dog would have an "edge" to it (which I read as sharp) and as such would NOT be safe in the situations I require a dog to be (described above) and thus no serious Sch person would have a recommendation for me because I do not want the right temperament

And yes I know I'll have to compromise somewhere but it is not likely to be in the health requirements

Well, I have two pups in my B litter that are EXCELLING on the Schutzhund field, they are extremely well balanced in temperament, they are trainable, biddable, WONDERFUL with children, affectionate and strong. They also look like rottweilers. What else can one ask for?

So, perhaps "world class" dogs aren't what you want, but I digress, there are dogs out there.

[JoJo]

OK Diane, then I will stand by my words, you then are not breeding the "whole" rottweiler. From what I've learned on this forum, the rottweiler is a versatile dog and if bred correctly to the standard, then it can live in a family structure very comfortably. So on that note, this novice rest her case.

[frontierrots]

I was not even looking at dogs that only do Sch, this comment was just tossed at me in reference to temperament.

"I" think a proper Rottweiler should be able to compete in a working venue (Sch, Obed, rally, herding, tracking, agility) with success, be a good citizen in public, be a good family member, scare off unwelcome intruders, not be so wired and crazed that they need to be kennel dogs nor so dead that you can't get them out of the house. They should be highly intelligent and easily trained. If you have to beat your head against the wall while training the dog is either dumb or has zero work ethic.

[frontierrots]

Originally Posted by JoJo

OK Diane, then I will stand by my words, you then are not breeding the "whole" rottweiler. From what I've learned on this forum, the rottweiler is a versatile dog and if bred correctly to the standard, then it can live in a family structure very comfortably. So on that note, this novice rest her case.

Where do you get that? My dogs are all living as family members. Bea's son even lives with 5 small girls under 10. I have NEVER bred a dog that could not be a family dog or safe in public

EVERY dog I have ever placed was a house dog/family dog and most live with kids. Even the pup I recently sold to a very competitive agility couple, lives in the house with a 5 year old girl and is expected to socialize with company

I was quoting what a Sch person told me yesterday that a high end Sch will NOT be family suitable and that for sure is NOT what I want to breed

[lblax]

Originally Posted by frontierrots

I was told yesterday that a "world class" Sch dog would have an "edge" to it (which I read as sharp) and as such would NOT be safe in the situations I require a dog to be (described above) and thus no serious Sch person would have a recommendation for me because I do not want the right temperament

And yes I know I'll have to compromise somewhere but it is not likely to be in the health requirements

you couldnt be more wrong than the statemant you just made a true world clss sch. dog is of the correct tempermant and would be safe in all the described conditions you wish. people get the wrong idea about sch. dogs and saftey because pure and simple there is an awful lot of poor training. people many time confuse edge when its drive thats needed and the drive to do excellant sport work has nothing to do with wether the dog is safe of friendly. and for the most part every breeding like you suggests waters down the breed and other than a few health clearances it is no better for the breed than two people throwing 2 nice dogs together for a breeding, well except those people dont claim to be breeders or claim to be in the know.

[SamAli]

Originally Posted by frontierrots

I'm talking about structure, health of line, soundness, health testing, sanity, high intelligence, trainability and a temperament that is public and child safe.

I think what Jojo is addressing with you not applying the same standards to YOUR bitch is the health of your line. It has been established that there is a genetic predisposition to early onset cancers and your experience with said bitchs mother and grandmother already dead is further proof. Plus the sire of your bitch produced a litter of SAS pups. You want to now find a stud for your bitch who herself comes from a line of cancer and SAS. So how can you say that you are applying the same standards to YOUR bitch????