East Coast Stud dogs

[fbkeays]

I will be breeding my girl this summer. I limited my stud search by demanding that the dog have an advanced tracking title. I wanted a dog with either CT or FH. Had to have a dark eye and mouth and be conformationally correct. Advanced obedience or herding titles were on list too. Naturally health was way at the top. Just about all of my criteria were at the same level.
I really have no interest in owning a "creampuff" dog. I want a dog that is biddable and has a work ethic. I have had dogs that were not easy to train. My last two were so much easier to train. Part of that was that I was more experienced, but most of it was the dog came from a pedigree of backend titled dogs. For me a working background is critical.

[JemarsSerena]

After two years of AKC shows, I have yet to see a stud that really impresses me. I'm on my way (hopefully) to the USRC Nationals to see what is there, so I hope to have an answer to this question after that.

[akemo'sroyalflush]

Have ever bred with the Akemo line? It is a good line show and health with obedience also.


Chris

[frontierrots]

Originally Posted by fbkeays

I will be breeding my girl this summer. I limited my stud search by demanding that the dog have an advanced tracking title. I wanted a dog with either CT or FH. Had to have a dark eye and mouth and be conformationally correct. Advanced obedience or herding titles were on list too. Naturally health was way at the top. Just about all of my criteria were at the same level.
I really have no interest in owning a "creampuff" dog. I want a dog that is biddable and has a work ethic. I have had dogs that were not easy to train. My last two were so much easier to train. Part of that was that I was more experienced, but most of it was the dog came from a pedigree of backend titled dogs. For me a working background is critical.

I also have zero use for a couch lump, floor ornament. I want High trainability. HIGH intelligence. I don't want to have to beat my head against the wall training basic fluencies. I don't want my puppy buyers to either

[blisscodisco]

I do not have any input but just wanted to say I really enjoyed this thread and found it informative

[Luvtails]

NE Regional USRC Seiger 2008, Multi V rated Arzadon Zato SchHIII, BH, ZtPR. HD fri, ED fri is a really nice dog. I fell in love with him when I went to his owners house, but it is when I saw him show that I was really impressed. outstanding movement, topline didn't budge even after all that running, extreme bone, beautiful head, fantastic temperment, black mouth, black eye. He was great with my son (stable friendly dog) and has the ability to "turn it off" but has the drive to work when wanted. He is currently in the US with Vince Carrabba who is very easy to talk to. I have seen 1 of his puppies and was very impressed. Zato's father is one of the most titled rottweilers Arzadon Tayson.

[Teresa]

My two cents...and wasn't limiting my search to any specific area (and yes, it does get expensive doing long distance breedings, especially when schedules don't work out!)

Someone posted a list of dogs that included two boys on my short list - CH Von Riddle's Starman RE (bred to him but missed), and CH Bernkastel's B'mer. My own three co-owned boys that I have decided to collect (only two have been used - by me) also meet my specs, but I'm already as linebred as I want to be this generation...so will also be looking out. I was quite happy with my Zorro kids - he lives in GA during the winter. Have admired many dogs out of Dasko, but don't likely have enough working homes for that - plus he has been used a bit more.

I want titles front and back (and know there are some great dogs not titled, but I have to know them personally well enough to think they could), nice medium workable temperament, all four clearances on themselves and their parents, and a reasonable number of cleared siblings. I really like dogs that have an extended family with good longevity - realizing if you want everything, the list gets short REAL quick. Producing ability is nice to see, but I've been the first to use several dogs, so that isn't at the top of the list. I've decided to be pretty fussy about the elbows, thinking we may need that in about 3 or 4 years. I would never toss a great dog over G1's, but if I can use clear out of clear parents for everything and keep the quality and temperament, it will make a good foundation.

Very sad to hear about Brito - he was a handsome and accomplished dog. I looked at him, but there was not enough health background in his pedigree for my comfort...I figured to let everyone else try him out, and maybe even use a son if a nice one came along with good background on the bottom.

I'll keep watching the thread - I don't get to the east coast for years at a time, so if there are nice boys that aren't widely advertised....

[frontierrots]

I have shared my personal stud dog criteria with a few people and I have basically been told the dog does not exist and if it does it won't look like a Rott.

It's not a tricky criteria- the gist of it is good looking, medium sized, dog with the health of dog and his family, trainability, intelligence and family safe, not a pedigree full of name brand dogs, nor with dogs known to throw health issues nor dogs that come from places which are known for health issues

Apparently intelligent, trainable, healthy, mentally and physically sound, family and friend safe dogs with work ethic that look like Rottweilers with a pedigree containing some genetic diversity (as opposed to breeding to a name and a stat to sell pups) no longer exist.

How very sad

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by frontierrots

I have shared my personal stud dog criteria with a few people and I have basically been told the dog does not exist and if it does it won't look like a Rott.

It's not a tricky criteria- the gist of it is good looking, medium sized, dog with the health of dog and his family, trainability, intelligence and family safe, not a pedigree full of name brand dogs, nor with dogs known to throw health issues nor dogs that come from places which are known for health issues

Apparently intelligent, trainable, healthy, mentally and physically sound, family and friend safe dogs with work ethic that look like Rottweilers with a pedigree containing some genetic diversity (as opposed to breeding to a name and a stat to sell pups) no longer exist.

How very sad

Well, there are those dogs who are campaigned heavily, and those who are not. There are also some real gems hidden away in kennels and "backyards", Diane.

The first stud dog I used was what I'd consider one of those "gems" (Ch. Von Wilhelms H D Night Train - Qualicum son, Tony grandson), as he wasn't campaigned after his Ch., and my breeding was his maiden voyage. I couldn't be more thrilled with how that litter is panning out. We got brains and looks, and so far everyone's plugging away nicely. They'll get their certs in 6 months and we'll see what's going on then.

I'm considering using another one of those "gems" in the future. I don't mind using an unproven male if he's got what I'm looking for. Story is strong enough to pass down what she is in a breeding, and I expect the same from her daughters (who are an improvement on Story) so I'm looking for more "compliment" than "fix".

Really, I think it's most important to look at one's bitch first, and then take a look at the males that will compliment her. There are some very nice males out there, but there are no perfect dogs. That's a fact, but it's not a scourge on the breed.

If I have a certain pedigree behind my bitch, I'm either going to do a linebreeding or an outcross. Then I have to figure out what will work, temperament wise, first and foremost (in my book). After that comes health and conformation. To me physical (cosmetic, some structural) issues can be modified much easier than temperament or health issues, so that's why I place precedence on the brain and the health.

While it pays to research and do the best one can do to move forward, it's really not something that should be so agonizing a decision, but rather a serious quest to improve upon the stock. This is dogs, not an exact science, and I think, generally speaking, the ethical breeders in this breed do more certification wise than any other breed out there, and - it's done voluntarily.

Yes we should take these choices seriously, but again, it shouldn't be an agonizing decision that leaves us with a feeling of despair! There are plenty of wonderful boys out there that have temperament, health and structure and movement, IMHO.

[JoJo]

I've been following this thread with interest, only because it's "very interesting" to hear what are the thoughts of breeders and what their interests are for the "betterment of the breed". I follow our members accomplishments and follow their sorrows. I cheer them on and cry with them when things go bad. I normally don't publicly say so, but believe you me, I do care. I'm not a breeder, have no interest in being one so obviously I will never be one. I don't have a clue on the "Who's Who list when you all are talking about these stud dogs. But I'm not a complete novice when it comes to understanding genetics and following lineages, (I got that understanding when I was in the "horse business" many moons ago.)

What I'm trying to get the gist of here is that what you are saying Diane is very confusing to me. In fact what you are saying is coming across very hypercritical. You are so concerned about the total makeup of the stud dog that you aren't looking into your own closet. If I was an owner of this "miracle stud dog" I don't think I would want to breed to your bitch. You're asking a lot from the stud, but you are totally missing out on the fact that your pups likely carry that genetic predisposition for cancer. Cancer that has taken both your pup's mother at a young age due to bone cancer and her mother from an aggressive form of cancer in her prime. So don't you think you should consider looking for a new line to start all over with? Why would you even want to breed to these same lines? Also, you sound so down and out in regards to the Rottweiler breed, maybe it's time to move on and find another "healthier" breed?

This is what I'm seeing and I'm the novice here. So what are the "pros" seeing? As you can tell, I have no dog in the show in this whatsoever. I'm just curious to your thought process.

[Teresa]

OK, a smidge off-topic (tangent, perhaps). The Doberman folks have a database and much more information in their pedgrees for date and cause of death. While I've researched that for dogs I was looking at, I'm hesitant to update my whole pedigree with the info...it's the old test-n-tell dillemma.

Even for health certs, folks will have a more negative perception when they see disclosed failings on OFA, than they will looking at blank spaces, or just finding out that the only dog posted is #10 and the other nine are invisible. Doesn't mean we shouldn't disclose, but just stating the psychology of the situation.

For people I have considered bringing into the "family" - we share ALL of this stuff, including littermates, cousins, aunts/uncles, etc. If it makes people decide to breed to something else with less information (i.e., only the good stuff), then maybe that's OK. I find it really helpful, but sadly people that don't test or disclose, breed to the top dog every year...well, they have a much easier time finding good homes...both for working and show. Pet homes are easy enough, but it's hard to defend the quality of your breeding program when only one or two of each litter ever see any kind of competition.

This isn't a despair statement, but just an observation. What do these pedigrees look like if filled in with age and cause of death (and include siblings?). I wouldn't say cancer is primarily inherited, but there are risk factors - just like in humans. I know human families where almost every woman had breast cancer...and yet I lost my sister at 38, but there is not a relative in 4 generations we can find that ever had it. So, sometimes it can be environmental, or random mutation, or a sum of many risk factors. What you need is to see if there is a pattern in the family. Are dogs that live to 10 or 12 just lucky, or is some of that good fortune pre-loaded in their genetic makup?

[toobad]

Thats a nice reply. It takes two for sure to get great dogs / puppies. I don't think anyone will ever breed the PERFECT dog especially overnight. Anyone serious enough to want to even try should know that it is something you chop away at over a period of time. All anyone can hope for is to be able to say that what they bred is better than their parents were alone.

The winningest Rottweiler in the history of the breed is not anywhere near a perfect dog and SOME wouldn't breed to him because he has no " working " titles. Add to that the fact he has a questionable elbow and you wonder why people line up to breed to him. Some people are just looking for a name on a pedigree and THAT is what is sad !

When you get right down to it .... it is usually about the money that can be made and not so much what you really get in the finished product.

Just my opinion of course :)

[SamAli]

Jojo's post is not one any breeder wants to hear but I think he has a good point. Instead of trying to find the perfect stud dog, it may be time to look for the perfect brood bitch. You have been very public that cancer and SAS are plaguing you given the bitch you want to breed is out of a sire that produced your SAS litter and out of a dam/granddam who died way too young of cancer.

It seems you tried to do the right thing but it seems it only brought you more health issues.

The future of the breed is in the hands of the bitch owner - for the sake of our breed do strongly consider not breeding your bitch.

[JoJo]

I don't think anyone will ever breed the PERFECT dog

That's what I'm saying. But if one wants to better the breed, (that is the purpose of breeding isn't it?) why not then require the same out of the bitch? What makes one think it's only the stud dog that contributes all the good qualities? That is what makes no sense to me. As a breeder, wouldn't having that "perfect" bitch mean just as much? That's where I'm having a hard time following Diane's thought process.

[frontierrots]

Originally Posted by JoJo

What I'm trying to get the gist of here is that what you are saying Diane is very confusing to me. In fact what you are saying is coming across very hypercritical. You are so concerned about the total makeup of the stud dog that you aren't looking into your own closet. If I was an owner of this "miracle stud dog" I don't think I would want to breed to your bitch. You're asking a lot from the stud, but you are totally missing out on the fact that your pups likely carry that genetic predisposition for cancer. Cancer that has taken both your pup's mother at a young age due to bone cancer and her mother from an aggressive form of cancer in her prime. So don't you think you should consider looking for a new line to start all over with? Why would you even want to breed to these same lines? Also, you sound so down and out in regards to the Rottweiler breed, maybe it's time to move on and find another "healthier" breed? :

The Rottweiler breed as a whole has a 70-80% rate of cancer, 1 in 8 risk of bone cancer.

Actually Frontier dogs ARE better in this regard. We have a TWENTY percent rate of cancer and a 1 in 12 rate of bone cancer. The oncologist I spoke with says NOTHING about Bea having osteo will ever increase the produce's odds of cancer above the breed's already horrid average.

15 years ago it was not so hard to find dogs that were unrelated to the current over used studs. Take a look online and in magazine ads. Almost every US dog is a decendant of the top 10 dogs of the last 20 years, imports are mostly from the top dogs over there. genetic diversity is being lost at an alarming rate, especially when you consider some of the top 10 most popular studs here and abroad have a pretty high rate of elbow or cardiac issues in their offspring.

I do not want perfect I want something less used, less health dangerous without being so sharp that the proverbial family of 4 can't live with a pup nor being so dull and dead that it is a floor ornament