Roslar Breeding Announcement

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Carol Burke

With the busy lives most of us live, it is sometimes difficult to get all those working titles by the time you want to breed the dog. If you are working with your dogs and just haven't gotten the time to put the titles on I see nothing wrong with this. You know what there abilities are and if they meet the criterea of a working dog. I'm familiar with several of Laura's dogs and believe me they can work.

I totally agree with the "ALL" the working titles, since these can go on for the life of the dog, but I believe that a minimum of a "few" should be proven before breeding. It's part of the "total rottweiler" that most breeders want to advertise that they are breeding for. Sure it takes time, but most AKC shows also have obedience trials at those same shows. The people that show a lot in AKC conformation have those same trials available to them when they go to show their dogs. These same people don't say "I'm sure my dog can be a champion easily, because I have friends that tell me so", and leave it at that. They prove it in the ring. Same needs to be said for working titles.

[Anton]

Originally Posted by Carol Burke

With the busy lives most of us live, it is sometimes difficult to get all those working titles by the time you want to breed the dog. If you are working with your dogs and just haven't gotten the time to put the titles on I see nothing wrong with this. You know what there abilities are and if they meet the criterea of a working dog. I'm familiar with several of Laura's dogs and believe me they can work.

Thank you Carol !!

You know, if I were retired, or had nothing better to do than be on the computer criticizing people all day, I'd have LOTS of time to train and complete with my dogs.

And NOT that I have to justify this to ANYONE, but I chose to put Quaid's obedience, carting and herding training on hold, to send him back East to finish his Championship. Then I chose to once again put him on hold, when I started Taylor on her quest for back end titles.

Taylor is almost 11 yrs old, and in the last four years, has gotten her HT/PT, JHD, CS, CI, RN, 2 legs on RA and will 'hopefully' get her CD between now and the end of the Nationals. (And the skeptics said it COULDN'T be done !!)

Quaid and Stella both will be continuing their obedience and carting training, and we'll be starting tracking when I get back from Nationals (and after Stella whelps).

Skip, if you could give me the winning lottery numbers so that I could quit work, or make the days 48 hours long, then your wish would be granted. If you can't accomplish this, then the titles will come WHEN they come.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Anton

....

Skip, if you could give me the winning lottery numbers so that I could quit work, or make the days 48 hours long, then your wish would be granted. If you can't accomplish this, then the titles will come WHEN they come.

Sorry, can't. I have worked for a LOT of years and I still put in at least 40 hours every week. That's also one of the reasons why I know I could never raise a litter of puppies properly. I would not have the time to do it right. I know some (ok, a lot) of my posts come across with a strong opinion. That's me in person also, and some of that will never change. I've always said that show AND work need to be proven before breeding, and this doesn't change that. I've looked back at some posts by some of the other posters on this thread (in some other threads), and I was going to pull in some of there previous posts in other threads that stated this also, but I don't need to stir this up that way. A lot of people are very busy, and still able to prove both areas in the ring, and I think it's a responsibility for any person before they breed, no matter what they've bred before. You are right, it's all about choice. This has been a stance of mine for a long time, and I have said it in person to friends of mine that were going to breed. I haven't wavered just because I knew them.

[frontierrots]

I don't know Laura, Don't know her dogs but ya know what Skip? At least she is doing something with the dogs other than conformation. At least the dogs have all their health checks including cardiologist performed cardiac checks (most german venue breeders, especially Sch ones can't be bothered in my experience) and I'd MUCH rather see an ethically and responsibly bred litter from parents with all the health checks than a litter from dogs with every title known to man that are lacking 1 or more important checks (like hearts by cardiologist) sold to anyone with the cash to buy a pup

[Skip]

Originally Posted by frontierrots

I don't know Laura, Don't know her dogs but ya know what Skip? At least she is doing something with the dogs other than conformation. At least the dogs have all their health checks including cardiologist performed cardiac checks (most german venue breeders, especially Sch ones can't be bothered in my experience) and I'd MUCH rather see an ethically and responsibly bred litter from parents with all the health checks than a litter from dogs with every title known to man that are lacking 1 or more important checks (like hearts by cardiologist) sold to anyone with the cash to buy a pup

Welllll, I very much agree about the "hearts by cardiologist". In fact, I like the idea that some breeders (even some SchH breeders) (although not required to) are doing heart (cardiologist) checks every year. I think a lot of people DO "something" with their dogs other than conformation, I just feel these "somethings" need to be proven in the ring, especially before breeding. Since health checks are so important to you, would you do a breeding if the sire and dam had the same elbow issues as this pair? I know every dog has something we wish was better, but, since you brought up how important the health checks are to you, I'm asking your opinion if you would (or have) bred a litter with elbow issues on sire and dam. LIKE I SAID I'm not a breeder, so I'm asking breeders' opinions on what their breeding guidelines are as far as elbow issues on sire and dam. Once again NOT A BREEDER HERE, but I thought it wasn't good to double up on the issues. I'm actually trying to learn here. I understand it's good to have the grandparents clear, but does that carry more weight than the sire and dam? I know some dogs with elbow issues never show any physical signs of any impairment, but what are breeders guidelines when dealing with elbow issues? OK to double up?

[Anton]

Originally Posted by Skip

Since health checks are so important to you, would you do a breeding if the sire and dam had the same elbow issues as this pair?

What Skip, you read and don't retain ???

Also for the record, both Quaid and Stella's elbows were evaluated by an Orthopedic Specialist and given a clear reading. He actually had the x-rays in his hand when he did the evaluation. NOT like OFA, who scans the x-rays and sends pictures out on the computer for the radiologists to evaluate.

Read very slowly............................

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Anton

What Skip, you read and don't retain ???



Read very slowly............................

I read very well. I read everything. You can roll your eyes all you want, but I'm looking for answers here. BELIEVE me that if you want to play any word games with me here about my eyesight or retention, you better be REAL prepared to go at it. Now, why are the results much different in the OFA database for the elbows on both dogs? I've heard stories where bad x-rays were sent in and misdiagnosed, but then why not just re-send in the better x-rays to OFA to get the good rating for all to see? I've heard of this done before, but OFA is the generally accepted sanctioning organization. If I misread OFA then I apologize. If you are submitting these better x-rays for new approval, then I apologize again.

[Carol Burke]

OFA will and does read bad x-rays on hips, instead of sending them back as poor x-rays they will make a determination, usually wrong. Elbows are different, there is no such thing as a bad elbow x-ray, however many orthopedic vets disagree with OFA findings on elbow x-rays. My bitch has DJD 1 in both elbows, she herds, she is working on her CDX so she jumps, she carts and she has no problems, therefore I consider her breedable.

[Anton]

No, what YOU need to do is start your own topic and ask all the health related questions you want.

You've done a FINE job of hijacking this one and turning it into a bashing contest of me. I don't need to justify my dogs or my breeding program to you.

You don't like it................go back to YOUR breeder (who, btw, has numerous litters now and scheduled to bitches who don't have any working titles and one who is ED II).

I'm not going to turn this into a bashing contest of him, but please feel free to ask him the same questions about "working titles" and "health problems" that you've asked me.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Anton

No, what YOU need to do is start your own topic and ask all the health related questions you want.

You've done a FINE job of hijacking this one and turning it into a bashing contest of me. I don't need to justify my dogs or my breeding program to you.

You don't like it................go back to YOUR breeder (who, btw, has numerous litters now and scheduled to bitches who don't have any working titles and one who is ED II).

I'm not going to turn this into a bashing contest of him, but please feel free to ask him the same questions about "working titles" and "health problems" that you've asked me.

I talk to him frequently, and he has never avoided any questions from me, refused to answer, or re-directed it to someone else. I'm content with all my dealings with him, like what I bought, liked the breeding, but will probably go to germany next time. You posted here on a public forum, then you choose to dodge, weave, evade, and try to direct it to others. There was no hijacking. You posted about this breeding, and that's the topic I stayed on. You chose to take it somewhere else. I've seen, heard, and "retained" all I need to know about it now, unless you really want me to go further. Up to you. And to Carol Burke, thanks for some clarification. Your opinion was appreciated.

[Anton]

Originally Posted by Carol Burke

Elbows are different, there is no such thing as a bad elbow x-ray,

Sorry Carol, I didn't see your post before, and I do want to answer this one thing though. I have to disagree with this statement.

In Quaid's case, his elbow x-rays were submitted to OFA (even though I felt the quality of the x-ray was NOT very good). His first submission came back as Level 1 in BOTH elbows.

2 months later, I had his elbow x-rays re-done. These I took to the OS, and had them looked at before re-submitting to OFA. The OS said his elbows were CLEAR. OFA then came back (a short 2 months later) with 1 Normal and 1 Level 1.

This proved to me that the quality of x-ray DOES make a difference. Because his Right elbow didn't miraculously "heal" itself from being dysplastic to Normal in 2 months time.

And this is why I also sent Stella's x-rays to the OS and he also found her elbows to be "clear". So evidently this OS is a "Quack", and OFA is "GOD" !!

My bitch has DJD 1 in both elbows, she herds, she is working on her CDX so she jumps, she carts and she has no problems, therefore I consider her breedable.

BINGO !!!!!

[Carol Burke]

[quote=Anton;815529]
In Quaid's case, his elbow x-rays were submitted to OFA (even though I felt the quality of the x-ray was NOT very good). His first submission came back as Level 1 in BOTH elbows.

2 months later, I had his elbow x-rays re-done. These I took to the OS, and had them looked at before re-submitting to OFA. The OS said his elbows were CLEAR. OFA then came back (a short 2 months later) with 1 Normal and 1 Level 1.

This proved to me that the quality of x-ray DOES make a difference. Because his Right elbow didn't miraculously "heal" itself from being dysplastic to Normal in 2 months time.

With hip x-rays positioning is important and makes a big difference (which OFA ignores) however with elbows they are what they are, positioning makes no difference. Depending on who reads the x-ray can make a difference and perhaps that is why you got the different results. I don't believe that OFA is the end all as far as elbows are concerned and would take the word of an OS over OFA everytime.

[Anton]

Originally Posted by Carol Burke

With hip x-rays positioning is important and makes a big difference (which OFA ignores) however with elbows they are what they are, positioning makes no difference. Depending on who reads the x-ray can make a difference and perhaps that is why you got the different results. I don't believe that OFA is the end all as far as elbows are concerned and would take the word of an OS over OFA everytime.

I will agree with that, because the elbow can be in various degrees of flexation (is that a word ??), and OFA can still give an evaluation.

But the quality/sharpness of the x-ray is VERY important, because of the way the x-rays are read now. Any slight blurring can make it look like there is something going on in the joint. I just can't see how the scanned picture can be as clear as the actual x-ray. They must have one super-duper high powered scanner. lol

[Teresa]

Laura,

Looks like a nice breeding - good luck! My recent kids are out of a Duke grandson, hoping to pick up some of that nice pigment. I may go back to the Duke son next year...Duke wasn't perfect for all girls, but what he did throw he threw consistently. I like the European dogs for type and pigment, but can't find even ONE that has all clearances, and fully tested parents or any siblings. Ah well, have to stay domestic...there are still good dogs out there.

For Skip - yes, you do come off very negatively in most threads...have you ever done any herding? Do you know what a PT entails, vs. an HS? Herding is fairly instinctual (like tracking), but does take a fair amount of training, and PT is a two leg title (must pass the course twice under different judges). Granted the trial levels are harder, but don't waive off a PT as nothing. It's not dissimilar to a TD, and many of us don't want to do Sch, or don't have access to a good trainer. For herding, not only do you have to train/control your dog and know the rules, but you have the added random behavior of the livestock...but the dogs love it :)

On elbows - I also would look at the siblings, and believe they should carry as much or more weight in the decision as the grandparents. Skip's breeder doesn't disclose many, and has bred both G2 and dogs that don't appear to have passed hips. Whatever answers he has given Skip - well if he's happy with them, that's his business. There is more to breeding than just conformation, just titles, or just health clearances. But...I'd rather have a healthy untitled dog - there are priorities. I've always had a title on both ends for both parents of all of my 9 litters...and only once did I try a breeding with one of my girls that was a uni-G1...and she had four siblings that passed, parents and most aunts/uncles passed, and all but one grandparent passed (uni-G1)...plus even the grandparent's sibling info was available and above average. That's at least the thought process that I put into using a G1, and we all have to stand with our own decisions.

For a DJD G1, it means SOMETHING other than a completely smooth joint surface, and nothing measurable to 2mm of osteophytes, etc. So from my perspective, a G1 is unlikely to be symptomatic, and yet isn't quite as good as a completely clear elbow. OFA doesn't recommend excluding all G1 dogs, as at present it would restrict our gene pool excessively and probably result in the loss of too many other things that are imporatant to us. I do think some breeders just ignore it, or can't bear to give up on a really nice dog that gets a G2 or UAP/FCP...that I won't use, but I can't decide for others.

[s1960]

Having a disagreement with the tone of Skips questions is one thing, but two breeders taking shots at his breeder accross this thread is the wrong direction to go with it. The points about elbows and working ability as far as herding are great topics and I think very good info.