Tail Question for Breeders

[mamamia1]

Any breeder who calls themselves responsible would dock or not dock the entire litter. You could never show a docked or tailed dog if the entire litter isn't done. If one is done they all must be done, vice versa. If someone with a tailed dog was at a show and someone else was there with a docked dog from that litter they would BOTH be thrown out. A good breeder would know this.

Is this true? I've read through the manual and such and couldn't find any such ruling.

[dmoniz]

USRC Show Information

I don't know if there is any such rule for AKC shows or not, this is for USRC. The information is found under "Tails:"

[OnyxGold1]

It would be tough to say if this would be true or not.

I have been asked in the past whether I could leave a tail on a pup for a pet home (and then dock the rest of the litter). My response was 'no' simply because tails must be docked (if you are docking them) between birth to 5 days.....I can't tell at that age whether pup A or pup B and so on is going to be show or pet quality. Frankly because my preference is the docked look I would not then want to be selling what could potentially be the most stunning puppy in a litter to a pet home simply because I left the tail on.

In Canada we can show dogs with natural or docked tails as our breed standard allows for both.....however I still believe that in the CKC conformation world the preference of a show judge would still likely lean towards a docked dog all other things being equal. As sad as it is to say....& I have seen many stunning natural tailed dogs shown here......normally they don't even place in their classes despite often times being better than their docked counterparts.

I have never heard of it being true that if one dog were left natural tailed and the remaining litter docked then both would be excused. Frankly how would a judge know if two dogs in the ring were from the same parentage/litter or not? I have never been asked for the parentage or litter information of any of my pups in the ring. I remember a show a few years ago where my (now retired) girl Jenna won BOB, her 7 month old daughter Caper won WB/BOW and 7 month old son Dennis won WD and the judge was stunned that he had given Breed/BOW/WD to a mother and two of her off spring.

I know there is a breeder in Ontario who sometimes (I THINK) docks some pups and leaves others natural in a litter. I believe she is possibly a member on this forum as well. So perhaps she could elaborate more if she reads this thread.....but I would highly doubt it would be a disqualification for there to be littermates, one natural and the second docked.

Heather Peters

[TrinaJ]

I am not a breeder but when you go into the show ring, you go in with a number. You are anonomous to the judge, he or she doesn't know who you are or who the breeder is for any of the exhibits so i dont know how that could be true.

However, that being said, if there is a rule that stipulates that all puppies in the litter should be the same (tailed or docked) i guess an exhibitor can protest to the judge as they will have the catalogue showing linage. If such a rule exists i am sure you could find out from your AKC.

[toobad]

I could not find a written rule but I can assure you I have seen it written on a shows premium that " You can not show a dog if the entire litter is not the same or you will be excused "

As to TrinaJ's post ...

Here in the US if there was even a thought that there was a written rule you can bet some sore loser would bring it to the judges attention. I've seen people whine over some pretty silly stuff in the past. FOOD is a perfect example. Some people cry the blues that someone else was baiting their dog with food but they couldn't. SOME shows rules state no baiting with food and some don't. SOME judges allow it and some don't. Judge and President of the USRC told my friend once " go get some cheese " when he complained that someone else was using cheese to bait their dog

[TrinaJ]

Originally Posted by toobad

I could not find a written rule but I can assure you I have seen it written on a shows premium that " You can not show a dog if the entire litter is not the same or you will be excused "

As to TrinaJ's post ...

Here in the US if there was even a thought that there was a written rule you can bet some sore loser would bring it to the judges attention. I've seen people whine over some pretty silly stuff in the past. FOOD is a perfect example. Some people cry the blues that someone else was baiting their dog with food but they couldn't. SOME shows rules state no baiting with food and some don't. SOME judges allow it and some don't. Judge and President of the USRC told my friend once " go get some cheese " when he complained that someone else was using cheese to bait their dog

How does the saying go....its a dog-eat-dog world... I am sure that saying is applied TEN FOLD at dog shows.

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by mamamia1

Is this true? I've read through the manual and such and couldn't find any such ruling.

I think what Heather is saying explains it the best.
I don't think there is a ruling that it is not allowed....but how can a COE breeder know at 2 days of age, what a puppy is going to turn out like?

Why would she leave your puppy with a tail? and have the rest docked? What if the puppy she left with a tail turned out to be the most dominant and pushy pup of the litter? What if this was not the right match for your home? How can the breeder determine at that age what is the right puppy?

I would NOT buy a puppy from a breeder unless the whole litter was docked or the whole litter was left with tails. Puppies should not be selected at 2 days of age.

Gina

[targonrotts]

as for AKC, i have never seen or heard of such rule.
do not know about other registries or USRC, but in akc-no.
in akc you can be disqualified for having a corrective surgery done. you can see this rule under rules and regulations applying to dog shows.
American Kennel Club - akc.org

[brunie's mom]

The OP is from Canada...so it would be the CKC. I have to look through the rules for the CKC. I also looked at the RCC, and it just says that the litter must be docked before day 5, and puppy cannot have it's tail amputated after it is sold.

Gina

[mamamia1]

Thank you for all your response. I can totally understand what you are saying with regards to not being able to determine a pups temperment/conformation at under 5 days of age. And I do think that our pup did end up being the boldest of the bunch, which is challenging but not overwhelming. We were not planning on going through any conformation shows, but I would hate to see this decision effect other pups in the litter if that was their chosen path.

[Eirian]

I co-bred a litter that we partially docked and I would never ever suggest that someone do this. The cirucmstances in my case were unique, however in my personal opinion there are far too many variables involved when picking a puppy such as structure, headtype, temperament, tail set (to name just a few) and there is no way one would know any of this in the first week of a puppies life.

With respect to not being able to show a dog if the entire litter is docked/undocked is in reference ONLY to USRC members. If you are not a member and you've partially docked a litter you CAN show your dog at a USRC event.

For interest sake, I was told by the USRC President that the reason they have the stipulatin of having to entirely dock/undock litters is to deter breeders who have produced faulty tails, i.e. ring tails, kinked tails from docking only these pups and leaving the rest of the litter natural.

Johnna

[mamamia1]

Thanks Johnna, very informative. In hindsight, I can completely understand why this would not be a good practice. All I knew is that I didn't want my girl to be docked, I didn't realize at the time that this would prove to be a problem at all. I was forewarned that the pup that was chosen for us at such an early age may not be the ideal match for us. We were lucky and are very happy with our tailed girl.