Breeding Before 2 yrs of age

[kclinch]

I have a question(Flame suit is in tact, and on)....

Since they stamp hips and breed in Germany/Europe at 18 months, why is it such a huge issue to do the same here, IF, and ONLY IF, you have hip exrays(either sent off to Europe to be stamped, or OFA Pre-lims, or Evaluated by a School of Vet Medicine), and you have some titles on your dog?

For instance, my bitch and my male both have OFA Prelims, my bitch has had her eyes checked(both are going in for CERF eye checks next week), both have been Thyroid tested(negative), and both are conformation correct, as judged in a ring by a judge.

My bitch will never get her AKC championship. She is conformation correct, but not as "bulky" as the bitches in the AKC ring, however, she has her SG1(IABCA), has a Tres Bon(very good) from FCI Judges(I had her judged at the Beauceron Specialty in Missouri this past year), and I plan to show her UKC. She has been in the AKC Show ring, but has always gotten 2nd(never had a ribbon withheld---they can do that and I have seen it happen), however, again, she will not make it against some of the dogs here.

My male will likely never make it in AKC as he has a tail. He, too, has his OFA pre-lim, and is a working assistance dog(As is my bitch, who is a world traveler.) He will be shown in UKC, IABCA and has already been shown at an ADRK Specialty and has received his VP2 Rating.

I personally have no issue with breeding a dog that is 18 months, again, PROVIDING that health checks are in place.

The country of origin feels that it is ok to breed 18 month old dogs, so why do we, here in the US, seem so horrified at that.

Flame retardant suit, fully intact and ready....

[brunie's mom]

What other titles do your dogs have? Any working titles? obedience titles.
I know in Canada OVC also does elbows and hips at 18 months....but most good breeders want to title their dogs in something before they even think of breeding. That often makes the dog older than 24 months.

I also think the extra 6 months...between 18 to 24 months gives them a chanced to mature and grow some more, as well behavior and temperament problems, as well as physical problems may show up in those months. Half a year is not a long time to wait to breed.

Gina

[fbkeays]

What is your hurry? In the USA (the country, not the GSD club) the standard is OFA. I know of no rottweiler COE club that allows breeding before 24 months of age. I would be very suspicious of a person who wants to breed so young. I want to know what their motives are and before even knowing what they are, I would suspect that they are not in the best interest of the bitch or the breed.
Rottweilers are prone to a type of cataract that does not typically show up until between 18-36 months of age. Personally I don't believe or trust any clear CERF that was done before 18 months of age because of that and perfer to see CERF for after 36 months.
Again, what is your hurry?

[rottcrazed]

What would being 'tres bon' at a BEAUCERON specialty have to do with proving correct ROTTWEILER structure? I am confused there.

Pre-lims CAN change in final reports, moreso in the elbows than hips, but both CAN change, and you didn't mention heart clearances.

It is great you have done what you have, it is certainly more than a lot of people do, but why can't you wait just a little longer and do it all as ethical breeders do?

Keep in mind, you are not living in Germany, your dogs I presume are not imports as you have not mentioned that, so why do you feel the need to breed before both of your dogs reach 24 months old, which is the norm in North America?

You said you have no problem breeding at 18 months if health checks are in place, but clearly, without a final OFA report, they are not in place, so MAYBE being patient is the best thing to do .... JMHO.

Kristi

[kclinch]

Originally Posted by fbkeays

What is your hurry? In the USA (the country, not the GSD club) the standard is OFA. I know of no rottweiler COE club that allows breeding before 24 months of age. I would be very suspicious of a person who wants to breed so young. I want to know what their motives are and before even knowing what they are, I would suspect that they are not in the best interest of the bitch or the breed.
Rottweilers are prone to a type of cataract that does not typically show up until between 18-36 months of age. Personally I don't believe or trust any clear CERF that was done before 18 months of age because of that and perfer to see CERF for after 36 months.
Again, what is your hurry?

I am not in a hurry. My girl is 2 weeks shy of her 2nd Birthday. She is in heat now, but her progesterone tests is at a 1. Typically she is at a 4.0 on day 12(I have run progesterone tests on her every heat cycle to get an idea of how she runs, since I may take her Europe to breed in a year or so, and may want to get there ahead of time.

BTW, you insinuation that I am only in it for the money....Hah....If that were the case I would not have started doing hip exrays at 6 months, eye exam 2 times, thyroid tests(twice), complete blood work with Brucellosis testing on both dogs.

Breeding in Europe is standard at 18 months. So why do people here have an issue? They are so much more knowledgeable there than we are here.

And, further, many professionals handlers/breeders/conformation people will breed early in order to fill out a dog.

What if you import a dog at 18 months in whelp? What if you purchase a dog from Europe that has been bred? At say 20 months?

Do they even do Eye exams in Europe? Seriously? I have never seen evidence if they have.

I am not suggesting breeding a dog under the age of 18 months....but, I do not see a problem breeding a dog at 18 months or older, AGAIN, if all health testing is in order.

Just an opinion.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by kclinch

...

The country of origin feels that it is ok to breed 18 month old dogs, so why do we, here in the US, seem so horrified at that.

....

You are wrong. That is far from Germany's only criteria. Germany (thru the ADRK) also requires that both parents have a ZtP and at least one of them has at least a SchH1. If you are going to follow Germany's guidelines, then follow ALL of them, not just the ones that suit you. What the hell is your rush? Tail or no tail, if your dogs are good reps for the breed, they can both still be titled in conformation. Why aren't you also proving them worthy of being bred with a few working titles? I don't understand this sudden rush by some here in the US to try to breed using Germany's 18 month rule on the hips and elbows without following ALL their rules. You are a loooong ways from really doing the right thing here.

[kclinch]

Originally Posted by rottcrazed

What would being 'tres bon' at a BEAUCERON specialty have to do with proving correct ROTTWEILER structure? I am confused there.

Pre-lims CAN change in final reports, moreso in the elbows than hips, but both CAN change, and you didn't mention heart clearances.

It is great you have done what you have, it is certainly more than a lot of people do, but why can't you wait just a little longer and do it all as ethical breeders do?

Keep in mind, you are not living in Germany, your dogs I presume are not imports as you have not mentioned that, so why do you feel the need to breed before both of your dogs reach 24 months old, which is the norm in North America?

You said you have no problem breeding at 18 months if health checks are in place, but clearly, without a final OFA report, they are not in place, so MAYBE being patient is the best thing to do .... JMHO.

Kristi

Kristi,

The FCI judge is not only a judge of Beaucerons, but also of Rottweilers.

No, my dogs are not imports. HOWEVER, I do not believe that the COE in the US is correct about breeding.

In reference to Skip's comments....My dog has her SG1, and other titles, as well as the fact that she is a certified assistance dog. That alone goes to temperament. She will never have a Schutzhund title due to the fact of my beliefs about Schutzhund trained dogs being assistance dogs. I do not believe that a dog who has been taught to bite has any business doing assistance dog work.

As I also said, she has 2 legs of her RN title, and will have the next leg within the next month.

BTW, Did I mention that she turns 2 in two weeks? No? See, all of you make assumptions....

[damp]

Originally Posted by kclinch

Breeding in Europe is standard at 18 months. So why do people here have an issue? They are so much more knowledgeable there than we are here.

And, further, many professionals handlers/breeders/conformation people will breed early in order to fill out a dog.

What if you import a dog at 18 months in whelp? What if you purchase a dog from Europe that has been bred? At say 20 months?

Do they even do Eye exams in Europe? Seriously? I have never seen evidence if they have.

Europe is many countries (NOT only Germany) and each country has their own rules.
BUT where do you read, that EU countries think it’s OK to breed dogs younger than 2 years? Any links please to official EU Kennel Clubs (IFC) and their rules about ethics!!!

Just because we test your dog here earlier, that does not mean a dog is ready (and old enough/mature) to be breed.
Why do you equate age of health tests with age of breeding... or health tests with breeding at all!!!! WE DON'T!!!!

PS: No, "eyes" and "hearts" are not required in my country... but conformation and working dog titles and at least The Danish Mental Test looks good on a peedigree!

[Skip]

[quote=kclinch;809587]Kristi,
......
In reference to Skip's comments....My dog has her SG1, and other titles, as well as the fact that she is a certified assistance dog. .....QUOTE]

An SG1 is not a title, it is a placement. What are these "and other titles"? Conformation titles, working titles, and ALL health certifications need to be done first.

[frontierrots]

you also make NO mention of a cardiologist performed cardiac certification. While notpart of any COE requirements, to me hips and hearts are the two never breed without health tests

People have asked you and you avoid answering so I assume they are not done

As to age, I personally do not believe after years of being in the breed that THIS breed (not GSD, or Beaucerons....) are not mentally mature enough for a litter until at least 2 with some bitches not being mentally ready til 3. An 18 month old Rott is like a 16 year old human- a few are mentally mature enough to be Mom's at that age but most are not

[kclinch]

No one has asked about Cardiac. It has not been done yet. However, I am planning to do it at the Peach Blossom Cluster.

[damp]

Originally Posted by Skip

Multi V1, Multi Select Youth Male
BH,AD,OB1,SchH1,BST

Just a question:

What of the above are titles or "just" placements and which one counts for breeding???? (Besides BST)

But nice placements anyway

[Skip]

Originally Posted by damp

Just a question:

What of the above are titles or "just" placements and which one counts for breeding???? (Besides BST)

But nice placements anyway

front end placements: 5 times V1, Including V1 at the 07 USRC
Sieger Nationals and Canadian Sieger Nationals, 2 times V2 by 3 years old (all under different judges).

front end titles.............. SELECT adult male, Multi Best Youth Male

Backend titles...............BST, BH, AD, OB1, SCH1 (High Sch1 in
trial, "Pronounced in Protection")
P.S. and many more to come.
...and just for the record: OFA hips good, elbows normal, heart normal (cardiologist), eyes normal.

[fbkeays]

I would never dream of breeding even 1 day before having the OFA hip number in my hands. I am NOT impressed with you doing pre-lims. Big whoop! I have done pre-lims. I know lots of people that do prelims.
I have done many complete physicals, at least one a year. I even had my spayed bitch OFA'd hips and elbows. I did eye exams and full thyroids yearly on her too. All of my dogs have multiple CERF exams. Heck, I even had my neutered male get his cardio clearance via cardiologist. What you have done should be standard procedure. I am not impressed.
In America, for the Rottweiler, ethical breeders don't breed until after 24 months and after the health tests are done. I am sorry that your girl is in heat now, and there not being enough time to do OFA x-rays and get the result back in time when she turns two.
One of the signs of a responsible breeder is patience. So you have to wait, so what. There are some things that responsible breeders do and those are the things that separate the responsible breeders from the irresponsible. It is just something that responsible people do.

[kclinch]

Originally Posted by fbkeays

I would never dream of breeding even 1 day before having the OFA hip number in my hands. I am NOT impressed with you doing pre-lims. Big whoop! I have done pre-lims. I know lots of people that do prelims.
I have done many complete physicals, at least one a year. I even had my spayed bitch OFA'd hips and elbows. I did eye exams and full thyroids yearly on her too. All of my dogs have multiple CERF exams. Heck, I even had my neutered male get his cardio clearance via cardiologist. What you have done should be standard procedure. I am not impressed.
In America, for the Rottweiler, ethical breeders don't breed until after 24 months and after the health tests are done. I am sorry that your girl is in heat now, and there not being enough time to do OFA x-rays and get the result back in time when she turns two.
One of the signs of a responsible breeder is patience. So you have to wait, so what. There are some things that responsible breeders do and those are the things that separate the responsible breeders from the irresponsible. It is just something that responsible people do.

Oh, this is just tooo funny...Thanks I needed the laugh!