Breeding Before 2 yrs of age

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Calin

Then perhaps you shouldn't ask. Instead, do a forum search. What you want to know has probably already been typed a million times before. That way, you get your answer and we don't have hear you whine that it wasn't said pretty enough. WIN WIN!

It's no skin off MY nose if YOU don't ask a question. *shrugs*

I have to quit falling for these types of threads. The OP was really just trying to find a few that would validate a dumb decision, no matter how many disagreed with it.

[targonrotts]

kclinch,
i gave you my opinion when you approached me that time at the show in davie.
i encourage you to continue showing, doing rally and obedience. i encourage you to be patient, enjoy your dogs' youth and take them to full potential. puppies should come eventually if all is right(health tests/complimentary to each other/have good homes lined up).they are both still young and have plenty of time.

in the end, it's all your decision. all we can do is give our advice/opinions. remember all here are very protective of our breed.we see them end up in resues, wrong homes, wrong hands. we see owners with heartbreaks of sick dogs.

i hope you look past all the "judgement" and do the right thing by your dogs and the breed.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by targonrotts

i hope you look past all the "judgement" and do the right thing by your dogs and the breed.

I would also recommend that she deal with her OWN "judgement". Until that is done, she won't be able look past anything to do right by her dogs and the breed.

[Sharon Marples]

Originally Posted by kclinch

So, If I imported a bitch who had a V1 rating, a Hungarian Championship, a BH, ZTP, and HD Frei, and was 19 months old and chose to breed her, I would be an evil person?

Please, get a life.

Again, your ignorance shows.......in my opinion, you WOULD be considered an unethical person, maybe not an evil person, but close. And, this also shows that you do not know the problems with many of the Hungarian lines. Heart disease is VERY prevelant there.....I would never breed to a Hungarian import without having echo heart certification done.

And if you think a SG1 is a good enough rating to give you permission to breed, you (again, IMHO) are totally wrong. We mean TITLES, not just placements, on your dogs. At least a couple of V-1's are in order if that is all you are going to do. And your excuse for your dogs not being able to get an AKC CH is just full of &#@%..........if they have the structure, the movement, and are presented correctly, they can achieve a CH. I can't believe all of your excuses........

[TrinaJ]

In Australia, The RCV Inc requires that bitches be at least 22 months of age at time of mating. This is to allow for maturity and to make sure that any inherited diseases are not present. HD/EB and eyes are tested FROM 18months of age, but most wait until 24 months (The ones i know of anyways). Most breeders dont even consider breeding their dogs until they are at least 2 1.2 or 3 years old. NOt only is the dog more mature, they also have adequate time to get their conformation titles and their working titles.

We dont do heart certs here, I am unsure as to why. Are there any aussies here reading this thread that know why we dont do it? If i was to ever consider breeding Jett (Handing her back to her breeder to do it, i woudln't be doing that myself ) I would like to make sure that she is physically okay and would like the cardio done on her.

OP, To breed before your dog is old enough is just cruel. How would you like one of your children to become a parent in their teens? They are still children themselves, same with dogs. Some aren't even ready at 2/12 - they are still puppies, let her enjoy puppyhood.

Please wait a while longer and enjoy your 'puppy', get her titled, make her litter one that serious buyers will want - you dont have anything to lose and everything to gain.

Also what conformation titles and working titles do her parents have? Are their hips and elbows good? How about their eyes and heart? I would do the heart in the US if that is what's required....

These are just my thoughts which you asked for. Please do not get angry at people when you ask their opinion, after all you came into this thread with your flame retardant suit on...

Trina

[Mick Trainer]

Originally Posted by TrinaJ

We dont do heart certs here, I am unsure as to why. Are there any aussies here reading this thread that know why we dont do it?

We don't cardio dogs here yet as no one as determined that there is a problem within our stock showing heart problems. After speaking to people here I have done some reseach on cardio issues and as yet havn't found a problem though it may come in time. So far as far as I know the only country screening for cardio problems is the US but I am happy to be corrected.

Just for the record very few breeders seek to put working titles on their dogs. The working aspect and true temperament soundness of the Rottweiler here seems to hold little sway in breeding practices of the vast majority of breeders here. Add to this that the VCA and AKC do not recognise most of the working titles and refuse to have it placed upon offical pedigrees and you see a problem ahead. I no longer know the exact number of SchH titled Rotts in Australia (titled here) but I would guess it is well less than 20. Further as far as I know there is only one SchH3 male ever titled here (again there may be one or two more now days). I think the overall temperament of the majority of Rotts I work with now days is questionable and feel that most are happy to put their head in the sand and blame the BYB etc for the temperament problems that we see yet I get a lot of work from many well known breeders get their dogs more under control before the next show.

For the record I wouldn't breed a bitch under two years of age. Now because of hip x-rays etc (though these are clearly important) but simply I don't find many bitches who are mature enough before this age. I have seen others do it and many have had successful litters but I wouldn't do it.

Mick.

[TrinaJ]

Originally Posted by Mick Trainer

We don't cardio dogs here yet as no one as determined that there is a problem within our stock showing heart problems. After speaking to people here I have done some reseach on cardio issues and as yet havn't found a problem though it may come in time. So far as far as I know the only country screening for cardio problems is the US but I am happy to be corrected.

Just for the record very few breeders seek to put working titles on their dogs. The working aspect and true temperament soundness of the Rottweiler here seems to hold little sway in breeding practices of the vast majority of breeders here. Add to this that the VCA and AKC do not recognise most of the working titles and refuse to have it placed upon offical pedigrees and you see a problem ahead. I no longer know the exact number of SchH titled Rotts in Australia (titled here) but I would guess it is well less than 20. Further as far as I know there is only one SchH3 male ever titled here (again there may be one or two more now days). I think the overall temperament of the majority of Rotts I work with now days is questionable and feel that most are happy to put their head in the sand and blame the BYB etc for the temperament problems that we see yet I get a lot of work from many well known breeders get their dogs more under control before the next show.

For the record I wouldn't breed a bitch under two years of age. Now because of hip x-rays etc (though these are clearly important) but simply I don't find many bitches who are mature enough before this age. I have seen others do it and many have had successful litters but I wouldn't do it.

Mick.

Thanks for all of that information Mick, I really had no idea about the heart testing and i agree 100% with you, no way would i breed a dog under 2

The conformation side is for fun, I would love to get a Ch for Jett but i am more interested in the working side, with obedience, tracking, endurance etc. I guess i am a little different to the breeders we have here then. I think a sound temprement is as equally important as having the correct conformation and i am going to try and get both.

[Mick Trainer]

i am more interested in the working side, with obedience, tracking, endurance etc. Whilst all these are good and serve to educate you to the in and out of your dog and show small windows into the temperament of your dog in real terms they will not show the true temperament quality of the dog as they do not put the dog under enough pressure and get the dog to show its true character. Only when the dog is put under true duress is the temperament exibited.

Mick.

[TrinaJ]

Originally Posted by Mick Trainer

i am more interested in the working side, with obedience, tracking, endurance etc. Whilst all these are good and serve to educate you to the in and out of your dog and show small windows into the temperament of your dog in real terms they will not show the true temperament quality of the dog as they do not put the dog under enough pressure and get the dog to show its true character. Only when the dog is put under true duress is the temperament exibited.

Mick.

What kind of pressure are you talking about Mick to get the dog to show the true temprement?

Thanks,
Trina

[frontierrots]

Originally Posted by Mick Trainer

We don't cardio dogs here yet as no one as determined that there is a problem within our stock showing heart problems. After speaking to people here I have done some reseach on cardio issues and as yet havn't found a problem though it may come in time. So far as far as I know the only country screening for cardio problems is the US but I am happy to be corrected..

SADLY cardiac problems are present in all lines of the breed worldwide. Many many dogs overseas drop dead, usually it is called "heat stroke" or "poisoning" or who knows what because .. I don't know why.

Dogs imported to the US from all countries have died or been diagnosed with SAS, eastern bloc countries SEEM to have a disproportionate amount of it. Import dogs throw SAS just as much or more than US bred dogs.

A dog can in fact live a long life with mild SAS or even be a silent affected (elevated velocity but no other signs) and appear to be fine and healthy but throw it in their offspring.

No country can in fact say they ARE clear of SAS until breeders start having their stock CARDIOLOGIST cleared (OFA website has the exam protocal on it and they will accept submissions for certifications from Countries other than the US). Dopplar echo is the gold standard (velocities 1.7 m/s and below are at this time, viewed as as clear as we can get at this time. 1.71- 1.9 or so are viewed as silent affected), but an auscultation by a cardiologist following the exam protocal is adequate. Practitioner certifications while allowed by OFA are not worth the paper they are on

Overseas breeders always said SAS was a US problem, UNTIL people started checking the import dogs and their offspring

[makjamz]

Originally Posted by TrinaJ

What kind of pressure are you talking about Mick to get the dog to show the true temprement?

Thanks,
Trina

Trina,

I believe Mick is referring to the c phase of SchH = Protection.

Here you find the dog under the max courage, pressure, and control during differents parts of the routine. With excellent training, when the dog advances to higher levels ie SchH/VPG III or the IPO 3 - the better the dog should become. The SchH and IPO routines are a little different.

Mary-Ann

[RottsNScotts]

My pup that died of SAS at 13 months was sired by a GERMAN import...

[damp]

Originally Posted by makjamz

Trina,

I believe Mick is referring to the c phase of SchH = Protection.

Here you find the dog under the max courage, pressure, and control during differents parts of the routine. With excellent training, when the dog advances to higher levels ie SchH/VPG III or the IPO 3 - the better the dog should become. The SchH and IPO routines are a little different.

Mary-Ann

I am not Mick!!!

SchH in my opinion takes a good dog, but it has nothing to do with testing temperament.

No one now a day would drive to a training field and pull the dog out of the trunk and let it do a courage test. Today we train and prepare a dog for SchH… work with drives, bites and build confidence! And when finally the dog is ready for the trial, it knows exactly what to come… it’s a (good) program, where the helper works according to a set of rules, and we have worked for months and years to adjust our dog to tolerate exactly the stress.

To truly judge a dog’s temperament, you have to stress the dog in unknown situations. You don’t train for this…. but simply take your dog out of the trunk and let it loose and see what happens and scares the ???? out of it, when it meets the set up for the test.
In a temperament test you look for:
The dog’s willingness, engagement in play and co-operation, curiosity, willingness to search and bond of the pack, the inclination to answer and to challenge, behaviour and threshold of fight/defense/flee, the inclination to dominate, the willingness to protect and the ability to stop invaders, the ability to act while shooting and to ignore shots, the inclination to flee from scaring experiences, the ability to act suitable in relation to the experiences and conflicts, the ability to keep the interest and finish an act, to concentrate, the ability to involve, the energy and the drives, and last but not least… the courage and the ability to calm down/recover from stress!

[TrinaJ]

Originally Posted by makjamz

Trina,

I believe Mick is referring to the c phase of SchH = Protection.

Here you find the dog under the max courage, pressure, and control during differents parts of the routine. With excellent training, when the dog advances to higher levels ie SchH/VPG III or the IPO 3 - the better the dog should become. The SchH and IPO routines are a little different.

Mary-Ann

Thanks Mary-Ann, I thought so but wasn't sure, i dont really know much about Schutzhund - a condition of training with Rottweiler Club of Victoria is that the dogs being brought into the venue are to have no protection training at all.

Trina

[TrinaJ]

Originally Posted by damp

I am not Mick!!!

SchH in my opinion takes a good dog, but it has nothing to do with testing temperament.

No one now a day would drive to a training field and pull the dog out of the trunk and let it do a courage test. Today we train and prepare a dog for SchH… work with drives, bites and build confidence! And when finally the dog is ready for the trial, it knows exactly what to come… it’s a (good) program, where the helper works according to a set of rules, and we have worked for months and years to adjust our dog to tolerate exactly the stress.

To truly judge a dog’s temperament, you have to stress the dog in unknown situations. You don’t train for this…. but simply take your dog out of the trunk and let it loose and see what happens and scares the ???? out of it, when it meets the set up for the test.
In a temperament test you look for:
The dog’s willingness, engagement in play and co-operation, curiosity, willingness to search and bond of the pack, the inclination to answer and to challenge, behaviour and threshold of fight/defense/flee, the inclination to dominate, the willingness to protect and the ability to stop invaders, the ability to act while shooting and to ignore shots, the inclination to flee from scaring experiences, the ability to act suitable in relation to the experiences and conflicts, the ability to keep the interest and finish an act, to concentrate, the ability to involve, the energy and the drives, and last but not least… the courage and the ability to calm down/recover from stress!

Thank you damp for your indepth explaination.

Trina