Breeding program to bring back working characteristics to conformation Rotts.

[tonycan]

Does anyone have an idea if its possible to select and bring back working characteristics to conformation type rotts? Would it be possible to select puppies showing working drive from conformation breedings and eventually come out with working line Rotts?

[OnyxGold1]

Perhaps I don't quite understand your question but in my opinion the working characteristics/traits of a well bred rottweiler are THERE regardless of whether someone's interest is in conformation or whatever venue they chose to work their dog. I don't think that a rottweiler could be a rottweiler in the truest definition of the breed unless it was a working dog.

I think it primarily goes back to what the owner or breeders interest is in the venues they pursue with their dogs.

My primary interest is conformation however my dogs do also work.....its just not something that we pursue formally because its not something that interests me. Will my dogs herd my cattle for me....yup, will a couple of them pull a cart with split firewood on it...yup, can they track a coyote that killed a couple of chickens and hold it at bay until I get there...yup, will a couple of them pull a sleigh in the wintertime with square hay bales on it....yup; does it interest me in pursuing formal carting/tracking or herding tests.....not especially.

I don't think you can own a rottweiler without also having a working dog. Three of my girls are so high drive that I'm sure they would drive me insane if they weren't doing something.

I think the working drives are already in a well bred rottweiler regardless of the venue that the owner chooses to participate in.

JMO
Heather Peters

[Skip]

Originally Posted by tonycan

Does anyone have an idea if its possible to select and bring back working characteristics to conformation type rotts? Would it be possible to select puppies showing working drive from conformation breedings and eventually come out with working line Rotts?

it would probably be easier to take some of the strong working rotts, and try to breed them for consistently good conformation.

[Ann Felske-Jackman]

I would tend to agree with Skip on this one. Once we breed working traits out, I feel they are very hard to get back. It is easier to choose the best looking of the working dogs and build the conformation to where we want it.

We ourselves tend to make choices based on working characteristics first, using only those individuals who also have very good conformation. Many of our co-owners on the other hand lean toward prodcuing beautiful conformation dogs who are reasonably eager to work. Often times, we're using the same core lines to achieve our goals, just taking them in different directions. Eventually, we can then put these pedigrees back together, hoping to occasionally get the best of both worlds (note that I'm saying occasionally, as the reality is that the more traits we try to perfect, the more difficult time we will have perfecting ANY of them).

[dmoniz]

Originally Posted by Skip

it would probably be easier to take some of the strong working rotts, and try to breed them for consistently good conformation.

This is my inclination as well...

[Skip]

Originally Posted by OnyxGold1

..........

I think the working drives are already in a well bred rottweiler regardless of the venue that the owner chooses to participate in.

JMO
Heather Peters

Can't really agree here. In my opinion, WAY too many people say there dog is a working dog, or that they could EASILY attain working titles...but then they don't. I think each generation (for the most part) is getting watered down because the dogs aren't really worked and proven. For those few breeders left that consistently work and prove the working abilities, I think that is the only way that the real working abilities can be consistently kept and passed on.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Ann Felske-Jackman

....
We ourselves tend to make choices based on working characteristics first, using only those individuals who also have very good conformation. )....

I wish more breeders would use your logic Ann.

[Ann Felske-Jackman]

One caveat I have to make here however is that what one breeder looks for in terms of working ability may be very different than what another breeder wants. So even though my logic may be good, it still could mean that the dogs I choose with that logic could be very wrong for another breeding program. And because so many of us have fundemental differences in what we look for, we each breed dogs that are incompatible, giving all of us less, not more, working dogs to choose from when we need breeding partners in the future. Did that make any sense?

[JemarsSerena]

You make a lot of sense. I believe that form follows function. If we breed for working qualities first regardless of exterior conformation for several generations we can start to get working qualities back then we can start to work on conformation. We might have to live with some dogs that might not be pretty, but the end justifies the means. The issue is, can you get enough reputable breeders to do this? Probably not.

[Ann Felske-Jackman]

It could never be REGARDLESS of conformation however. For a working dog to function, the conformation has to be right. Maybe we can forgo some of the secondary characteristics for a generation or two, but in terms of structure, it's even more important for a working dog to be built properly than a conformation dog in my opinion.

[JemarsSerena]

Originally Posted by Ann Felske-Jackman

It could never be REGARDLESS of conformation however. For a working dog to function, the conformation has to be right. Maybe we can forgo some of the secondary characteristics for a generation or two, but in terms of structure, it's even more important for a working dog to be built properly than a conformation dog in my opinion.

"Regardless" was the wrong word. You put it better than me.

The Standard describes a working dog. To variate from the standard would not produce a working rott. What I was trying to convey is that tempermant dictates drive. Conformation gives a dog the right physical type to perform the work. I think it is the drives that are missing more than physical aspects. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong on this, I am here to learn.

[Ann Felske-Jackman]

I think you're right in general. And dead on when you say "To variate from the standard would not produce a working rott". The standard is there to help us breed a working dog. It is never okay to deviate greatly from it in an effort to produce either the best working dog or the most handsome.

I do believe that the conformation of a dog can also play a part in his ability and desire to work. A dog who is correctly built is going to find it easier to maintain stamina and go the distance required at the higher levels of competition, or in real life work. Physical exhaustion can definitely affect mental capabilities. For this reason, a dog who is comfortable working will theoretically be able to exhibit more "drive". So we can ask, does one dog really have more drive, or could some of his physical characteristics allow him to better exhibit those drives?

Two examples that come to mind when thinking of how physical conformation can affect stamina (hence desire to work) are the very deep underlines we're currently seeing in the AKC ring, which add a lot of weight to a dog without adding any considerable strength, or the extremely short muzzles we're seeing in the Sieger Show rings, which in my opinion will seriously impede stamina soon. These are what I would consider "trends" for the show ring, and these are indeed the things that we can sacrifice, in fact SHOULD sacrifice, to produce a more correct working dog.

[tonycan]

Thanks for your opinions. I posted my question because where I live, the Philippines, I don't know of any working lines available. But 20 years ago when I had my first Rott, I remember her to have had the temperament as discussed in the standard. She was aloof towards strangers but would not be outwardly aggressive. The barely audible deep rumble she would have as any stranger came closer. As a puppy she exhibited a strong prey drive but I didn't know any better at the time. I really have been looking for a Rott breeding locally with pups with strong drives but have not had much luck. I've signified my intention to import a pup from the next Schaiger Wappen litter and look forward to working with a good pup. Still wondering though whether you can coax out of conformation lines the latent natural drive and temperament of the Rott.