Aunkst Rottweilers upcoming breeding

[Skip]

Really not trying to unduly stir something up here...but I still say the show and work titles should be proven before breeding. Even if the pedigree is outstanding, it's not the ancestors that are being bred here. I have never bred a litter of my own, and doubtfully I ever will since I only buy males, so I know there are a lot of people MUCH MUCH more knowledgable about breeding, but if the dogs are all that promising it seems that the work and show titles should be relatively within reach at an early age. I think it means more when you can tell prospective buyers that you are hoping for some very good work/show prospects, because you can speak from experience with the parents, as well as the ancestors..and it was proven before mating happened.

[Jaidann]

Okay *takes deep breath and puts on flame suit* Maybe I shouldn't be posting this here. If it's wrong of me to do so, I apologize. Please understand that I mean no one who's posted in this thread malice, only offering MY opinion. I'm new to this board, but not to Rotts. I do know what I'm in for and what is expected and needs to be done. The contracts make me want to rip my hair out but I know what I'm looking for in a breeder and their pups. I think I'd give away my hubby's left "you know what" for a pup out of a litter like this if all goes as they HOPE it will. (Hubby might object to this ;) )

However, as a buyer ... this is what I personally look for in this respective order.

#1 - Working relationship with breeder. How accessible they are. They don't have to be near me, but can I reach them easily by phone or email. And will they ANSWER me when I do need them? If something has gone wrong, can I count on their advice, support and perhaps direction on what to do next.
#2 - Temperament - This would probably more likely be tied with #1.
#3 - Health certs - how far back they go, etc.

Very last for me is any kind of title. Yes, I'd very much like to see that both are proven in their chosen areas be it conformation or working. However if one isn't, then I'd be asking questions of the breeder why not. I know showing takes a LOT of time and a lot of effort and perhaps it was a time issue. A decent opportunity came up before the dog could be titled. Not anything bad against the one dog. I'd do a search for passed litters and see what comes up for them, etc. Or ask for referrals.

So for me, there's ways to get around this IF you do your homework. As a buyer, it is of least importance to me and easily enough researched.

[JoJo]

Just another angle for this topic. What if the dog or bitch got hurt in some form and can't go in a ring to get those titles? Wouldn't "their" pedigree/lineage stand for something at this point? Mind you, the breeder needs to be a reputable person who has already proven themselves in titling a dog/bitch previously. Not some Joe Schmo off the street.

Yes we rant and rage about titling before breeding, but don't you think that we take into consideration who we rant and rage to on this topic? It's quite obvious when one asks the ignorant questions like, i.e. "how long does it take to whelp?" What do I do when she goes into labor? What end does the dog mount the bitch!!!!" You get my point. These people are the REAL problems for the breed, not the ones who sincerely work their dogs, study the pedigrees/lineage and take great pride in their dogs and breed to BETTER the breed. What should we do then, NOT speak up to these BYB? Should we just forget about educating them in what all is involved? NOT encourage them to spay/neuter? They do give us all the ammo to know that their dogs are not breeding material. Or do we just scrutinize our responsible dog owners/breeders to no end and not look at the big picture? Or are we looking at the big picture far too deeply? I'm not a breeder and never will be. I no nothing about birth'n babies!!!

[Luvtails]

Jo Jo,
I was just saying why scrutinize (sp?) this litter announcement at all and not the other also posted on the breeding page? the bitch of the other litter announced is also not tiltled. Why this one? at least they have their BH's

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Luvtails

...the bitch of the other litter announced is also not tiltled. Why this one? at least they have their BH's

. A BH *is* a title.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by moondog

. A BH *is* a title.

actually the bh is a more of a tempermant test than a title. i certainly wouldnt say that a dog with a bh has proved that it has any inclenation to do the work at all it has only proven that its tempermant may be sound and that it can perform the most basic of obediance that a dog of any breed should be able to acomplish.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by lblax

actually the bh is a more of a tempermant test than a title.

Oops....I thought it was considered a title, even though it is preparatory.

[Skip]

It is a title. It's the first basic level that a dog must pass before it can attempt a schutzhund title, but it's not considered a working title. A very basic obedience and temperment test.

[sch1rot]

Skip,

While you have your views on how you evaluate a breeding. I also have mine. I have to adamantly disagree on your statement regarding ancestors. I firmly believe they have everything to do with a breeding program. Why really ever look at a pedigree if the only consideration is how successful the sire & dam are in front & back end? I compared how my dogs matched with their pedigrees, not on initials in the front or back, but on actual what I know about each of the dog from personal interaction, input from others I respect that had hands on knowledge, and/or video research.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by sch1rot

Skip,

While you have your views on how you evaluate a breeding. I also have mine. I have to adamantly disagree on your statement regarding ancestors. I firmly believe they have everything to do with a breeding program. Why really ever look at a pedigree if the only consideration is how successful the sire & dam are in front & back end? I compared how my dogs matched with their pedigrees, not on initials in the front or back, but on actual what I know about each of the dog from personal interaction, input from others I respect that had hands on knowledge, and/or video research.

Ron...I think I was partly misunderstood here. The ancestors are VERY important to me, on both sides, and will always be. But my statement was that this is not a breeding of the ancestors, and each generation must stand on their own proven merits. The ancestors do not have everything to do with the breeding to me, or else it would just be a simple matter of breeding any offspring that the ancestors produced. I realize you have a lot of knowledge, and you seem upfront here, but I stand by my statement that each breeding should be from proven parents. I think it's difficult sometimes to make that happen before breeding, but I'm all for raising the bar for ALL of us.

[sch1rot]

Skip,


Gotcha,thanks for clarifying.

[SamAli]

I'm a bit confused still why these dogs are not titled. Is there a reason since their working drives are professed? Saying life circumstances have prevented titling the dogs is nothing but an excuse since life circumstances are not preventing this breeding. Plus there are more ways to earn a title then schutzhund so to blame a poor helper doesn't apply to other venues.

This whole thread reeks of hypocrisy since BostonRott has been a "prove it" person and Ann Felske Jackman has a breeding on her site of a bitch that also has not working or show titles or ratings. Hmmmmmmmmm

[Ann Felske-Jackman]

Originally Posted by SamAli

This whole thread reeks of hypocrisy since BostonRott has been a "prove it" person and Ann Felske Jackman has a breeding on her site of a bitch that also has not working or show titles or ratings. Hmmmmmmmmm

For what it's worth, that is not my own breeding, nor do I own or co-own the sire or dam. However, knowing both Rich and Lori, I think it's a good bet that you'll see Race titled before she is bred .

That said, we have indeed made exceptions, just like any breeder. But as discussed above, it should be the exception, not the rule. I do hope that no one thinks that any of us are specifically attacking the breeding posted. I for one have very little interest in this proposed litter, but was fascinated by the dialog that followed, so chose to reply to some of those posts.

[sch1rot]

SamAli,

I don't remember giving a list of excuses other than regarding one event in which I was going to compete in. Also I don't remember coming on the forum preaching about a litter needs to meet requirements x, y, and z.

That is fine that you have other areas outside schutzhund titles you would follow to title a dog, I wish you the best of luck on any that you pursue. For myself I am not interested at the time being.

[SamAli]

Ron - The excuses I mentioned were the ones mentioned by BostonRott in here above post. The hypocrisy coming from her STICKY posted in this very breeding section about breeding partners should have show and working titles before being bred. It seems this only applies when one wants it to apply.

Excuse me but if you are purporting working dogs. Prove it. I assume your dogs are AKC registered. So you can prove their ability to track and be obedient in that venue without a competent helper since there's no bite work. Plus this board always says to do obedience and tracking before bite work. So still no excuse for no titles.

Ann - All the good stuff you said about working a dog to learn it's temperament is true and applied to the selection of a mate once you know the strengths and weaknesses of a bitch or dog. So why post a breeding on your site before a bitch is titled? It's redundant to what Ron has done complete with saying the bitch will be titled. Seems putting the cart before the horse. Plus applying the logic that ones needs to work the dog to know the dog how can this bitches owner select your stud dog as a match? Exceptions for some but not for all seems to set a bad example for a reputable breeder to set. These breedings both seem premature.