Aunkst Rottweilers upcoming breeding

[Ann Felske-Jackman]

Originally Posted by s1960

Not to argue your points or or even direct this at anyone's breeding, but maybe sometimes the pedigree and what comes from some of the dogs is as important as a conformation title. Just a couple cents thrown in.

Just a thought on this one, but couldn't it be said that we only have reason to believe in the strength of a pedigree specifically because the dogs in that pedigree proved themselves in the working or show arenas?

I can't imagine that all of those who spent their lives showing and trialing these famous dogs who make our pedigrees so attractive would be pleased to see future breeders failing to do the same, then trying to sell pups based on the original breeder's accomplishments. In my opinion, we owe it to those dedicated breeders to show and work each subsequent breeding dog, if for nothing other than to prove that all of their past efforts did indeed produce what they intended them to.

[moondog]

While I think the question RottsnScotts raised is legitimate, and I also have no doubt Ron is sincere when he thanked her for bringing it up directly with him in this thread, the questions raised would be better discussed in a thread of their own, especially since other breeding announcements are being included in the discussion.

That said, since it isn't in a thread of its own I'll give my thoughts here. There's no comparison between someone doing extensive research on pedigrees, bloodlines, siblings, and progeny over a period of years that includes actually working, hands on, as many related dogs as possible including the ones being bred, and someone else saying "I have two 6 month old puppies and I'm going to breed them...when should I dock the tails?" without a thought, or even an inkling that there SHOULD be a thought, to what is being brought together with the breeding.

It's a sensitive topic because what is actually knowledge AND experience of both structure and working ability can give the impression of "elitism" if misunderstood, and that happens here all the time. I keep thinking of Joseph Campbell (a professor of religion) when asked, after decades of research and study, if he had faith. His reply, "I don't need faith, because I have experience." Our experience when new to this breed is largely based in faith. As we gain experience, we rely less on faith and the experience we gain as we go along doesn't end for someone who is truly a student of the breed, it continues to grow.

Comparing this breeding with the "I'm gonna breed my puppies" thread is apples and oranges to me.

[s1960]

Originally Posted by Ann Felske-Jackman

Just a thought on this one, but couldn't it be said that we only have reason to believe in the strength of a pedigree specifically because the dogs in that pedigree proved themselves in the working or show arenas?

I can't imagine that all of those who spent their lives showing and trialing these famous dogs who make our pedigrees so attractive would be pleased to see future breeders failing to do the same, then trying to sell pups based on the original breeder's accomplishments. In my opinion, we owe it to those dedicated breeders to show and work each subsequent breeding dog, if for nothing other than to prove that all of their past efforts did indeed produce what they intended them to.

Sure, I have a very strong feeling of responsibility to my breeder, my friend who owns my dogs sire and the breeders who put all that effort into his pedigree. So correct me if I'm wrong here but when I look at different pedigrees of very well known dogs I see an occasional un-titled dog, usually a bitch. The only thing I ever thought of that was that a knowledgeable breeder knew that bitch brought some value of some sort to that breeding and thats why they did it. You can also have a dog who maybe doesnt have a pedigree that would impress a lot of people but he could go out and win everything in sight pass the health clearances and then be offered at stud to everything in season. Do the titles on him outweigh the pedigree? My knowledge of breeding couldnt fill a thimble so I don't mean this as any kind of challenge but I think there is a place for dogs without conformation titles in the hands of the right breeders.

[linedog]

A few years back I past up a litter because the bitch didn't have a BS or sch. title, although she was V rated and a very good looking girl. It was a bad move because it was an excellent litter with great temperment. If I had been smart, I would have asked some people that had seen the bitch work, or watched her myself, Instead I passed her off as just another pretty face. After that litter, at 5 years of age she did a great breed survey and I got a pup out of her next litter. I am very satisfied with this dog, but, I was reminded that titles aren't everything, sometimes priorities and timing do make a difference.
Judging from the pedigrees on this litter and what I have heard about Junky, and the experience and reputation of the breeder, I think this a very exciting breeding, very rare here now. congradulations, hope some of these pups make it to the west coast.

[Ann Felske-Jackman]

Originally Posted by s1960

So correct me if I'm wrong here but when I look at different pedigrees of very well known dogs I see an occasional un-titled dog, usually a bitch. The only thing I ever thought of that was that a knowledgeable breeder knew that bitch brought some value of some sort to that breeding and thats why they did it.

You are absolutely correct. Many very good pedigrees include the occasional dog or bitch that is untitled, and yes, many of these dogs have produced as expected based on the dogs preceeding them. However, the reason that we title dogs is not so that the pedigrees look nice, but for what we learn about the dogs as we are showing and trialing.

You will probably note that when you see an unproved bitch in a pedigree, she is typically bred to a very highly proven dog. The reasoning behind this is that what we're lacking in information about one individual, we can hopefully be carried for one generation by the tremendous amount we know about the mate.

It is atypical for "working" breeders to put together two individuals who have not proven themselves beyond a BH or AD. No offense meant to the original poster, I'm just using this breeding as an example since we're here. The reason for this is that neither test puts enough pressure on the dogs to really give us an understanding of who they are. Training or even showing the dogs to the highest levels helps us to truly understand the dogs, leading us to be able to make the best possible breeding choices.

Truth be told, we have put much more promising parents together and still have had pups fail our expectations. Breeders by nature are optimists and that's a good thing or we'd probably all throw in the towel after going a few rounds with Mother Nature. However, I would caution everyone who is looking for a "working prospect"...when a breeder declares that a litter should make fine show and working prospects, it's best if they're saying that well after the pups have exited the womb.

[s1960]

I wouldnt disagree with you on any part of breeding Ann. The highly proven stud to the unproven bitch clarifies what I was saying. It fits in with trusting a qualified, knowledgable breeder pairing the two. Thats why as a small point in discussions on breeding, I think a Ch. in front of every dog isnt the be-all and end-all. Only one thing out of many to consider. By the way, nice pic of David M. on your website, He's a good guy.

[RottsNScotts]

I want to clarify that I don't think that a "CH" is the only means to evaluate and "prove" a dog's worthiness in conformation. There are also the obvious venues of Sieger type shows and/or BST's (or whatever version is appropriate).

I also don't necessarily think that a dog/bitch has to have titles at both ends in order to be breed worthy but it is WAY more important to me that they be an outstanding worker than big time show dog!!! I tell people all the time, and mean it!, that I will work an ugly dog before I will own a pretty dog that doesn't work! Fortunately, I have been very blessed and have not had to "settle" for the ugly dog to work! LOL!

I think that too many are putting the cart before the horse and wishing/hoping/planning/praying (those are the lyrics to a song...) that they can breed their dog instead of "holding the leash, following the dog" to see what kind of outstanding dog they HAVE and what they can accomplish THEN, if the dog truly is an outstanding individual in their field, THEN think about breeding!

For example, I think the entire BST/KKl (for German Shepherds) has been warped by people sending their dogs out for titles so they can be bred. In my opinion, the whole intention of the requirement was so that the owner could learn what their dog was made of in order to make the best breeding choices.

It has been my friends' experiences for the most part that one only gets to know what the trainer tells them about how their dog trained. A lot of trainers will have nothing bad to say about a dog so that the owner's feelings are not hurt and he/she will send the trainer their next dog for titling as well! What does that do for making proper breeding choices?

And, some would find that some of us puppy shoppers don't only want to see the titles, we want to see the scores and where the titles/scores were achieved and who the judge was, who the helper was, who the tracklayers were (okay, maybe not who the tracklayers were! LOL) to try to get a feeling for a dog we may not get to see ourselves AND we will talk to everyone we know who HAS seen the dog/bitch involved!

Picky group, us working folks!

Ron, I do so very much appreciate your "getting" what I was trying to say about your post and for not minding (too much???) that we ran off with your thread. You are a true sportsman and a gentleman and I do wish you the very, very best with your litter.

[frontierrots]

I'm gonna get kicked in the teeth here but...

I would MUCH rather someone bred dogs with ALL 4 clearances and the cardiac having been done by cardiologist, that are good looking in pictures, sound in structure AND temperament and have put maybe something basic like a temperament tests, CGC, RN etc on them

THAN those that are out there breeding multi BOB winning dogs (or multi V rated or even "just" CH) even if they also have something on the back end (OR the Sch crowd with the imports) but no cardiologist clearance, and maybe no elbow evaluation either.


The biggest problems facing the breed today are

HEARTS
Elbows
Temperament
lack of work ethic
casual/back yard breeders

[Ann Felske-Jackman]

Originally Posted by frontierrots

The biggest problems facing the breed today are

HEARTS
Elbows
Temperament
lack of work ethic
casual/back yard breeders

Personally, I'd rearrange that list a bit.

Our breed is not getting banned because of hearts or elbows. As much as I obviously believe in this testing, it is not what will keep us from owning Rottweilers in the future.

The fact that we (all of us, myself included) can't get temperaments right 100% of the time, and that fact that even the non-backyard breeders have become very careless about where they place pups is, in my opinion, the biggest crisis facing our breed.

[RottsNScotts]

From Diane's list, if people breeding their dogs DID the working and titling of their own dogs past the very minimal temperament tests that I don't believe DON'T truly test temperament and work ethic and the buyers demanded such of them, we would not have the casula/backyard breeders because it would be WAY too much work!

You see a number of breeders, casual or not, claiming "working" titles on dogs or the ability to produce working offspring that only have a basic CGC or worse yet, HIC??? (For those that do not know, HIC is "herding instinct certificate" on the dogs that are so proudly displaying it. Unfortunately, it is NOT a title but ARE the letters indicating a title that I don't think any Rottie has - Herding, Intermediate C Course!) And the Sch imports that are never worked by their new owners who are doing the promotions and breedings goes back to what I was saying about breeders who pay someone else to title their dog and therefore have no real clue what their dog is REALLY all about.

[BostonRott]

To address additionally what Janet has talked about, when researching a breeding, one should look into what has been produced.

Junky (the sire of this announcement) has produced one litter of 9 puppies (my litter). So far, with 5 dogs tested, we have 2 OFA Excellents, 3 OFA Goods and 5 sets of clear elbows. Two more dogs will soon be tested and sent in, and one final one is still waiting to save up for testing. That will give results on 8 of 9. Not too shabby.

Simply b/c a dog is not titled does not mean that it has not been tested, and this is where knowing the person doing the breeding comes in handy. Or better, having the working experience yourself and knowing how to properly evaluate the dogs being bred.

Ron has put SchH1 and BST titles on two previous dogs that he's owned. He's put BH/AD on other's dogs, and subsequently with these two. He knows temperament absolutely and would NOT be doing this breeding if he felt there were serious flaws.

How many who are so quick to judge have considered the idea that there may be club issues re: training time. What do you do when your helper comes down with a serious health issue? When there have been subsequent surgeries over the past 18+ mos of shoulder repairs, knee replacements, and more are needed?

Not all of us live in the land of good helpers and when the one you find suddenly has real life to deal with, guess what..........you don't always get your titles done. But last time I checked, it ain't the titles that pass on, it's the genes. If the talent is there, it will pass.....pure and simple. This is a breeding between dogs out of one of Germany's oldest and most solid working kennels. These bloodlines are what German working breeders have turned to for GENERATIONS to produce some of the great dogs of today. Need a common name? Look at Noris. Linebred on Herrenholz's A litter .... way back when. It's good solid blood that's been around a very long time and is well proven.

Junky's puppies are collectively out working on CDX legs, Open agility legs, Open Preferred agility legs, SAR work, Rally titles, have earned RN's, CD, BH's, AD and will soon be entering for BSTs.

If anyone would like to candidly discuss either dog in this breeding, feel free to contact me. I've known them both since they got off their respective air planes.

As to CH's, I quite frankly find little value. And, no offense to Ann, the Canadian CH doesn't hold a drop of water *with me* as no majors are required. The phrase "shoot up to Canada and grab a CH" is not a very complimentary one to the CKC.

I understand Janet's point fully, however, as Patti suggests, it would have been nicer to start a new thread, rather than putting a negative slant on a breeding.

Seems to me I took far less heat than this when I bred to Junky, and at the time, he was <gasp> 'untitled!'

[sch1rot]

Sorry to be away, but alot of other rottie business has side tracked me.

Brunie's Mom...I did notice you have posted to other litters announcements in the past that are not 100% to the criteria you have held me to. Maybe a change of heart since those posts, I dunno, although you (and everyone) is perfectly free to voice their concerns. I don't mind people being passionate about an issue...just be consistent.

I did not post the fact that Quincy has already done a BST of sorts. She was the demo dog needed for the Pocono Area RC sanctioning show BST. While she passed (having performed the entire evaluation along with the prerequisites to be entered) and was deemed with no disqualifying faults. This was merely a sanctioning show. Due to a misunderstanding she ended up not being shown at the USRC NE Regional show in Ct. She & Junky will both be entered in the upcoming USRC NE Regional hosted by SPARK in South Eastern PA ( I know shameless plug for the clubs soon event). She will also have her BST at some point as that is not a concern on her ability to pass it.

As I posted, and Gretchen touched on. I did not come to the closing idea of breeding them without considering many things. We each have our concerns in breeding programs. I have made sure my own dogs have passed the health testing which is extremely important just for my own but especially if offspring are to ever come. Temperment is very high on MY list. I am looking for exactly what is in my own dogs pedigrees in temperment...nothing less. I have a number of people whom I trust in also evaluating my dogs honestly & not to blow hot air up my ...well you know...lol.

I do appreciate the comments, and I again thank the well wishers too! I apologize for posting my own "expectations", which are just that what I expect from knowing each dog pretty much in both pedigrees top and bottom. Also from the time and training put in with these two. I COMPLETELY understand potential does not mean success in the litter box. What looks good on paper does not always turn out as we wish.

[RottsNScotts]

Originally Posted by BostonRott

To address additionally what Janet has talked about, when researching a breeding, one should look into what has been produced.

Originally Posted by BostonRott

So if a byb is breeding "for pets" and their dog/bitch has previously produced excellent pets for their friends and neighbors, that is okay?

Simply b/c a dog is not titled does not mean that it has not been tested, and this is where knowing the person doing the breeding comes in handy. Or better, having the working experience yourself and knowing how to properly evaluate the dogs being bred.

Again, how many times have we heard "well, my breeder has been breeding or "in" Rottweilers for 30 years"? Titling is the "proof" that the pair has been evaluated by an outside source in front of other people not connected with the breeding.

Ron has put SchH1 and BST titles on two previous dogs that he's owned. He's put BH/AD on other's dogs, and subsequently with these two. He knows temperament absolutely and would NOT be doing this breeding if he felt there were serious flaws.

It isn't about Ron. It is about either setting the standard of titling dogs before breeding or not.

How many who are so quick to judge have considered the idea that there may be club issues re: training time. What do you do when your helper comes down with a serious health issue? When there have been subsequent surgeries over the past 18+ mos of shoulder repairs, knee replacements, and more are needed?

Titling is NOT just Sch although it certainly is MY passion! But when you do not have access to it any more, you test/title in other venues.

But last time I checked, it ain't the titles that pass on, it's the genes. If the talent is there, it will pass.....pure and simple.

Again, many byb's say the same thing. But how long of that will finally dilute and wash away those working genes if each successive generation is not tested and those tests proved by titling? If the standard is not that EVERY dog bred is titled, then it is no standard at all.

Those of us that are experienced and do the research are aware of who is who. The new people that come on this list are going by what is put down in the post and they see an announcement that has little more than their understanding of their own breeding that is condemned so roundly.

Junky's puppies are collectively out working on CDX legs, Open agility legs, Open Preferred agility legs, SAR work, Rally titles, have earned RN's, CD, BH's, AD and will soon be entering for BSTs.

If anyone would like to candidly discuss either dog in this breeding, feel free to contact me. I've known them both since they got off their respective air planes.

It isn't about this breeding! It is about either setting a standard or not.

As to CH's, I quite frankly find little value. And, no offense to Ann, the Canadian CH doesn't hold a drop of water *with me* as no majors are required. The phrase "shoot up to Canada and grab a CH" is not a very complimentary one to the CKC.

As I said, it doesn't have to be Ch's, AKC or CKC, if that is not what one's preference is. It can be BST's, Ztp's, whatever but a demonstration that one has conformed to the standard.

I understand Janet's point fully, however, as Patti suggests, it would have been nicer to start a new thread, rather than putting a negative slant on a breeding.

Seems to me I took far less heat than this when I bred to Junky, and at the time, he was <gasp> 'untitled!'

It was specifically this post that did not meet the standards that are proclaimed on this list nor has it been the only one. It just came at a time when I had the time to point out the problem (and stick with it for all the replies).

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by sch1rot

Sorry to be away, but alot of other rottie business has side tracked me.

Brunie's Mom...I did notice you have posted to other litters announcements in the past that are not 100% to the criteria you have held me to. Maybe a change of heart since those posts, I dunno, although you (and everyone) is perfectly free to voice their concerns. I don't mind people being passionate about an issue...just be consistent.

Well I think my criteria has changed.
I think because we are always telling newbies that come here what to look for when selecting a breeder.....that we should practice what we preach.

I know that I expect a lot more from the sire and dam of my next puppy....as we all should.

I still don't understand why someone that is going to breed their dog should not try do do it all??? Why not be open about their health certs...? Why just post the certs that have passed??
Why not have anything on a dog you are going to breed besides health certs and knowing that the dog is good on the field?
Why should a dog not be judged on conformation? Why not show it in a Sieger show? I'm just saying this in general....not finger pointing at you.

How much extra time and energy does it take? I agree, a Championship is not a criteria for breeding....but it's at least a way to know that the dog fits the standard. Maybe there is different criteria for working Rottweilers?? do they just have to be able to bite?

Anne is right you cannot take credit for a dog because of it's pedigree...I think each dog must be proven.

I am ignorant about breeding. Never bred, and never plan to.

Sorry if it looks like I am picking on you. We get breeding announcements often...and when I'm looking at them, I've often wanted to post and ask why the bitch has no titles.....but I guess I was too polite.

Good luck with your breeding.

Gina

[moondog]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

Why not be open about their health certs...? Why just post the certs that have passed??

Originally Posted by sch1rot

The test results I have in my hand as I made copies of them. They are both are clear, and I do not think the Dr.'s form is going to be altered in the processing.

Where's the "deception" with regards to health certifications, may I ask? If you read what was written, the tests listed as pending are done, the vet that did the tests has deemed the dog clear, and he's just waiting on the official certifications to be issued. Deception would have been to list them as certified prior to receiving the certificates.

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

Maybe there is different criteria for working Rottweilers?? do they just have to be able to bite?

The assumption here has so completely overlooked what has been written, I don't even know how to respond....so I guess I won't.

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

Sorry if it looks like I am picking on you. We get breeding announcements often...and when I'm looking at them, I've often wanted to post and ask why the bitch has no titles.....but I guess I was too polite.

LOL, not any more.