What is the norm in "linebreeding"?

[OnyxGold1]

Hi Everyone

I've been mulling this question over for the past several weeks and thought I would pose it to the group for your opinions. When does a line breeding get too close and become an "inbreeding"? and in the event of an intentional "inbreeding" what would be the benefits of something like that to the breed?

I don't know I've been surfing and checking out various litters and have seen litters where the sire & dam are half siblings; seen others where a nephew is being bred to an aunt; lots where a grandsire is being bred to its same granddaughter, etc.

I've always heard but don't know if its 100% true or not that a line breeding is where the sire of the sire is the grandsire of the dam. Which is fair enough if that is true....but some of the litters I've seen have the much closer breedings occurring. Too close in my opinion to be linebreedings and thus I start to wonder at what point would a breeding become an "inbreeding", and what benefit that would hold for the breed??

I don't know I've just been seeing more and more of these closer and closer breedings and don't really understand why?

Just thought I would poll the group for your ideas....

Thanks
Heather Peters

[frontierrots]

properly defined an inbreeding would be brother/sister, mother/son, father/daughter, 1/2 brother/1/2 sister etc..

Aunt/nephew, grandfather/granddaughter are considered tight line breedings and grand son/granddaughter , cousin/cousin, or anything similar is a normal linebreeding

[Mongo]

Line breeding to get full Purple Ribbon Papers must have six generations to be breed back to the same dog, stud or damn, this is usually done with half siblings, three generations down, and then breed back to the same dog, this cuts the time in half.
If you breed sooner they used to issue you yellow papers.
This was the standard twenty years ago with AKC.

[rubyhunz]

please dont inbreed =/ i had a rott thats mother and father were brother/sister (i did not know when I got him) and he was not normal...it does nothinig for the breed.

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by rubyhunz

please dont inbreed =/ i had a rott thats mother and father were brother/sister (i did not know when I got him) and he was not normal...it does nothinig for the breed.

Actually, linebreedings and inbreeding can help the breed. By setting type, temperament and health.

Any breeder must be willing to cull.

When a breeder inbreeds or does close linebreedings, a breeder MUST be willing to look at the litter with complete honesty and objectivity (which should happen in any breeding!) and make harsh and difficult decisions. Either things will be really, really good... or really really bad.

I'm not sure what the norm is, Onyx, but I would consider my Poohbear's breeding an inbreeding (grandson to grandaughter, or 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister, basicly). This litter produced smaller bone and substance, and temperaments which I would now, after a decade in the breed, consider a bit weak in nature. It actually improved elbows and there was only one pup who suffered from thyroid issues, which had been an issue in the lines (my girl, during pregnancy... her thyroid went back to normal once spayed?!?).

Inbreeding, to me, would be father/daughter, brother/sister, mother/son, 1/2 brother/ 1/2 sister.

Linebreeding could be anything from grandfather/grandaughter to having the same dog in the pedigree several times in the first 3-4 generations.

i.e.: "SuperDog vom K9" might be the sire in the 5th generation, the 3rd generation, and his son "SuperClone vom K9" might be the sire in the 2nd and 1st generation, top and/or bottom side, thus mingling SuperDog's genes down the line to (hopefully) bring out his strong points.

I have no issues with doing tight linebreedings or even inbreedings. It will truly bring out the best... and the worst in the lines one is working with. A breeder really needs to know the lines like the back of his/her hand to do this intelligently. This is when good mentors can really come into play.

[RottsNScotts]

Originally Posted by Mongo

Line breeding to get full Purple Ribbon Papers must have six generations to be breed back to the same dog, stud or damn, this is usually done with half siblings, three generations down, and then breed back to the same dog, this cuts the time in half.
If you breed sooner they used to issue you yellow papers.
This was the standard twenty years ago with AKC.

I have been around AKC stuff for about 25 years now and I have never heard of "Purple Ribbon Papers" nor yellow papers but there are folks on here that have been around longer than I

Has anyone else heard of these with AKC???

[frontierrots]

Purple ribbon papers is a UKC term and has NOTHING to do with inbreeding. It just means that a certain number of ancestors have been UKC registered

[Mongo]

Frontierrots,
You are right I was unable to remember which registry it was, (This was learned with Hunting dogs, which had usually four to five different sets of papers on the same dog) they seem to come and go and different breeds have different registrys.
But in the day twenty to twenty five years ago, once you had purple ribbon papers on both dogs and you went closer than the six generation span they kicked you back to the yellow papers.
In other words line breeding is or was defined by that six generation skip before you breed straight back, any thing closer is Inbreed.
This is the method that has been used to develop different newer breeds and or to re coupe almost lost breeds and or species that still have a large numbers of stock to breed from.
This is not the thing that any average person is or should do. It is for the ones that are completely devoted for life to a breed and or species. For as poohbearsmom stated one MUST be willing to cull or one should not breed, neutering and or spaying is now the norm instead of the old school CULL.