need a little feedback on registration papers

[2kevin]

i have a new male puppy.. all my other dogs have been fixed and have been show quality rotties. i don't show won't show.. don't care to show.. don't breed don't plan to breed.. but new puppy has not been fixed and if is won't be for a couple years so.. should i send his papers in? will i be sorry if i don't i if i decide i need a puppy.. and could use him for stud? or should i just not worry about it and when i need a puppy just go buy one again.. ? anyone been through this .. regrets .. ? thanks for the help.. Kevin

[Mick Trainer]

In reality without going into breeding in the correct way taking on a large commitment to do so you are going to be far better off to simply buy a pup etc. By all menas send his papers in but dont breed becasue you want a puppy like him etc as the best way to do that would be to go back to the breeder who bred him and seek to get another from similar lines as if you do it the way you are talking about you have almost zero chance of getting access to a good bitch who could throw a quality pup.

Mick.

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by 2kevin

i have a new male puppy.. all my other dogs have been fixed and have been show quality rotties. i don't show won't show.. don't care to show.. don't breed don't plan to breed.. but new puppy has not been fixed and if is won't be for a couple years so.. should i send his papers in? will i be sorry if i don't i if i decide i need a puppy.. and could use him for stud? or should i just not worry about it and when i need a puppy just go buy one again.. ? anyone been through this .. regrets .. ? thanks for the help.. Kevin

I have to wonder what kind of breeder sold you a "show puppy" and you do not plan to show? Most want their best pups to go to show homes. Also a good breeder may have sold his "show quality" puppy to home that will not show, but would have made sure they sold it on a spay/neuter contract.

A good breeder would not be allowing you to think of studding out a dog, with out getting titles on the dog, as well as having the hips, elbows, eyes and heart certified....is this in your contract?

I would get the "papers"...in case you want to do some fun things with your dog, like obedience trails, herding, carting, tracking, agility, Rally Obedience,etc. There are many things you can do with your dog besides "show" him.

Read some of the stickies on the Breeding forum...lot of good information there.

Gina

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

I have to wonder what kind of breeder sold you a "show puppy" and you do not plan to show? Most want their best pups to go to show homes. Also a good breeder may have sold his "show quality" puppy to home that will not show, but would have made sure they sold it on a spay/neuter contract.

A good breeder would not be allowing you to think of studding out a dog, with out getting titles on the dog, as well as having the hips, elbows, eyes and heart certified....is this in your contract?

I would get the "papers"...in case you want to do some fun things with your dog, like obedience trails, herding, carting, tracking, agility, Rally Obedience,etc. There are many things you can do with your dog besides "show" him.

Read some of the stickies on the Breeding forum...lot of good information there.

Gina

Gina, a "show puppy" or "show potential puppy" is one without disqualifying faults. Period. I would hope that a breeder could produce a bunch of those in a litter!

I concur with Mick's answer to the OP. If, down the line you should want another puppy, buy one. As the owner of a male, unless you prove him in more than one way, you will find it next to impossible to find a worthy bitch to breed to, and you will almost certainly not get the same type of dog you possess now without a quality bitch.

Mick is correct that unless you really go about starting a good breeding program for yourself (which is hit/miss, expensive, and a LOT of responsibility), don't bother at all. You'll be happier in the long run by keeping things simpler for yourself.

Definitely register your boy, you paid for it, do it. That's a whole separate issue. Gina is correct, down the road, you may decide that you do want to show, or work your dog in performance events, and the registration is necessary for that.

[brunie's mom]

I know that "show potential" mean no disqualifiing marks....but it also is the way BYB's impress puppy buyers. The OP has said that "all" of his dogs have been show quality dogs, and they have all been fixed.

It's very common for BYB's to tell a puppy buyer that they are getting a "show puppy" or "1 st pick puppy"....meanwhile the "breeder" has never shown a dog. The sire and dam come from "champion lines"...that also impresses puppy buyers...meanwhile the champion is 3 generations ago.

Would a good breeder not make sure the puppy was sold on a spay/neuter contract when the OP had no plans of showing? Giving full registration on a puppy without any qualifications to allow that dog to breed in the future is what BYB's do.

I've seen some show puppy contracts...the breeder often wants the sun and the moon on those dogs before they are ever allowed to be bred....which is what they should have.

Gina

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

I know that "show potential" mean no disqualifiing marks....but it also is the way BYB's impress puppy buyers. The OP has said that "all" of his dogs have been show quality dogs, and they have all been fixed.

It's very common for BYB's to tell a puppy buyer that they are getting a "show puppy" or "1 st pick puppy"....meanwhile the "breeder" has never shown a dog. The sire and dam come from "champion lines"...that also impresses puppy buyers...meanwhile the champion is 3 generations ago.

Would a good breeder not make sure the puppy was sold on a spay/neuter contract when the OP had no plans of showing? Giving full registration on a puppy without any qualifications to allow that dog to breed in the future is what BYB's do.

I've seen some show puppy contracts...the breeder often wants the sun and the moon on those dogs before they are ever allowed to be bred....which is what they should have.

Gina

Some breeders contracts leave open the possibility of showing later, should the buyer get bitten by the bug.

I prefer that even companion homes do not speuter at a young age, but rather they wait until the dog has grown up, however, if they choose to speuter, they can do so at any time. This means that I must make every attempt to foster a good relationship with the buyers, and do as much research on them as possible to ensure they are responsible. Just as a buyer attempts to research, so should a good breeder, but even then, poop happens sometimes and people are not what/who they claim they are. Live and learn.

A limited registration can be given, and changed to a full registration if warranted.

Just because the OP has neutered every dog he/she's owned is not cause for concern at all in regards to the OP. Nor does that alone give me cause for concern about a breeder who sells a "show potential" pup to a companion home. For me as a breeder, it's much more important to that a dog be in the RIGHT home than be paraded around a ring.

I agree that BYBs try to sell a bill of goods, and while there are often faults in puppies, there are many litters bred with no disqualifying faults at 8 weeks. Hopefully this is what has happened. Perhaps I'm a bit too Polly Anna?

[2kevin]

well maybe I should have worded it better but I didn't expect to get attacked by the crazy dog lady?my male that just passed away was a resuce. I know the owners . They paid 5000 use to have thier female breed to get him. They got a divorce . Neglected the dog so I ask if I could take him. Because they talked of putting him down. He was the prettiest forty I have seen to date. He was the best dog I have had. We took him to get our female 6 years ago. The breeder was all over me about him .. Then he seen he was nuttered. He then then stated oh she is going be a pet and coned my brother into sighning contract to hve her spayed. At 6 months which turned into a mess. For the breeders sake I hope she doesn't get breast cancer or something because it won't go well. The male I just got this week has all of paper work in order pet, bloodlines ect. .. He is 11 weeks old and I don't see any disqualifications. But somepeople make it hard for people to ask questions without being attacked ....to try to do something different. I did not know I needed papers for a working dog.. I Was just woundering if the papers were that important.. More than likely I will nothing but feed , love, and play with my dog.. Yes I am well aware I could have gotten a cheaper dog to do this with but I figure I want the pretty dog, the good disposition ect. There for I would rather pay to get what I want. Sorry if I got anyone worked up...

[brunie's mom]

Crazy dog lady??? Hey only my friends can call me that.
I'm not attacking you, just wondering where you got this puppy from? Other people reads these threads too...and think because they have a registered puppy or a puppy with "papers"...that they have a show quality puppy....and think that when their dog is old enough they should breed.

Why don't you try doing something with your dog? This is a breed that loves training. It would be a shame to put all that good breeding and potential..to waste being a pet, and couch potato. Most good breeders hope that you do something with one of their puppies.

Register you pup, but have him neutered later...I don't think you understand what needs to go into a dog that is worthy of being bred. Papers and potential show quality...just don't do it.

Gina

[celtlass]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

I know that "show potential" mean no disqualifiing marks....but it also is the way BYB's impress puppy buyers. The OP has said that "all" of his dogs have been show quality dogs, and they have all been fixed.

It's very common for BYB's to tell a puppy buyer that they are getting a "show puppy" or "1 st pick puppy"....meanwhile the "breeder" has never shown a dog. The sire and dam come from "champion lines"...that also impresses puppy buyers...meanwhile the champion is 3 generations ago.

Would a good breeder not make sure the puppy was sold on a spay/neuter contract when the OP had no plans of showing? Giving full registration on a puppy without any qualifications to allow that dog to breed in the future is what BYB's do.

I've seen some show puppy contracts...the breeder often wants the sun and the moon on those dogs before they are ever allowed to be bred....which is what they should have.

Gina

I agree with Brunie's Mom totally, I think BYBs should clean up their act, tho I also feel that you should purchase the best pup you can find and afford, that should inspire you to do something with it, like carting etc. As far as spay/neuter that can wait for a while. You can't tell everything when they're pups, some things don't show till they're older. (Wish I had this forum years ago) But then Kevin, its a free country, and if you want the best you can obtain, and have it fixed, well, I feel thats okay too, that is your right. Sorry if no one agrees with me. As for us we will try very hard to do something for our little guy that will be good for all of us, probably the "gaming" part of training. Right now, he's learning to go outside to potty. LOL

[rottcrazed]

At 11 weeks, you have NO IDEA what he is going to turn out like on the outside OR the inside (ie ... hip/elbow/eye/heart clearances), so to suggest you keep him intact to possibly breed him down the road is kind of silly.

Show potential is something a reputable breeder assesses early, and usually keeps. My first litter was 10 puppies, none of which have any disqualifying faults, yet 4 of them were shown, 2 finished, the other 2 didn't enjoy it and were speutered (one of which was my pick who I kept until 16 months old). I can honestly say that they were NOT all show prospects for one reason or another .... so just because they have no disqualifying faults does not make them a good 'show prospect' IF you are talking to an honest person about it.

Just neuter him after 18 months for health reasons and buy another puppy down the road should you decide you want another .... leave the breeding to people who prove their dogs are conformationally/health and work-wise a good representation of the breed standard.

Kristi

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by rottcrazed

At 11 weeks, you have NO IDEA what he is going to turn out like on the outside OR the inside (ie ... hip/elbow/eye/heart clearances), so to suggest you keep him intact to possibly breed him down the road is kind of silly.

Show potential is something a reputable breeder assesses early, and usually keeps. My first litter was 10 puppies, none of which have any disqualifying faults, yet 4 of them were shown, 2 finished, the other 2 didn't enjoy it and were speutered (one of which was my pick who I kept until 16 months old). I can honestly say that they were NOT all show prospects for one reason or another .... so just because they have no disqualifying faults does not make them a good 'show prospect' IF you are talking to an honest person about it.

Just neuter him after 18 months for health reasons and buy another puppy down the road should you decide you want another .... leave the breeding to people who prove their dogs are conformationally/health and work-wise a good representation of the breed standard.

Kristi

I absolutely agree that at 8 weeks, it's a crapshoot. At 6mos, it's a crapshoot. At a year, it's still a crapshoot, and so on... however, I'm not one to say "speuter it now", as I think it's important for a puppy to mature into a dog in the healthiest way possible, and I like to see how the little dickens will grow out.

My original "keeper" from the B litter is now in a wonderful companion home and got neutered the week he was adopted by his new family. No problem. I encouraged it because he was nearly grown and prone to wanting to leg lift in the sneakiest ways, and I had a feeling this would discourage that behavior and make his life easier with his new family. I was right, and everyone is happy.

While I agree completely with the intentions of some of the remarks in this thread; i.e. lot's of folks read this forum, and BYBs abound, and educating the public is necessary, I also think it's a bit unfair to come down on folks who simply come in and ask very valid questions.

It's also unfair to think that no one can possibly handle an intact dog except for an "ethical breeder". Personally, I don't really agree with neutering males as a general rule. I've neutered my current boys either for my convenience (not wanting 2 intact males in the house with intact bitches), or for their geriatric health. Girls, on the other hand are much easier to live with spayed and are only kept intact if breeding is in the cards for them. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to keep a dog from being bred, only thoughtful management of the animal.

Now, back to the topic at hand, I hope that 2kevin will register his dog, and perhaps seek fun venues in which to work him, as the bond with his dog will increase with everything he does with him.

[rottcrazed]

I agree - as I said, hold off the neuter until some time after 18 months. I don't want any of the pups I produce to be speutered until that point in time, which of course means plenty of intact dogs for quite a while, but the intentions need to be right.

If someone were to tell me they would like the option of breeding later, I tell them what they need to do for me to lift the non-breed (Canada); Championship, a working title and full health clearance - and I tend to never hear from them again after that point.

Either way, there is plenty of info here about the best time to speuter, and why NOT to breed your nice pet .....

Kristi

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

Register you pup, but have him neutered later...I don't think you understand what needs to go into a dog that is worthy of being bred. Papers and potential show quality...just don't do it.

Gina

No where in any of the posts was it suggested to get this 11 week old pup neutered at a young age. I also do not believe in neutering/spaying too young.

To me it sounds like the OP got the pup from a BYB with full registration papers. He thinks he can breed his pup when he is older...yet does not believe in showing....even though he supposedly go a "show quality" puppy from the "breeder". OP has no plans on doing anything with the pup, but feed, love and play with his pup.

I really don't care if he got a show puppy and he does not want to show it, or if he plans on getting the registration papers...what I care about is that he does not plan on BREEDING this untitled, unproven dog because he may want a puppy later.

An as far as having intact dogs...being no big deal to keep from breeding...we seem to have at least one new member here a week allowing their dog(s) to get pregnant. Must not be that easy for the average shmoe. Not everyone has the setup to keep their dogs intact.

Gina

[2kevin]

what does the ch in front of his fathers name stand for? and the cd and td after his name stand for? because his mother has a ch before her name and a cd after her name?? i was referred to these people by the person i got my last male from?? like i said before my last male did not come with his papers and was already fixed anyone??

[2kevin]

I will more than likely have him fixed at 18-24 months..simply because i don't want the pissing on the end of the couch and ect..i would never breed on my own .... what i was thinking was if a breeder wanted to use him for stud and i could get my next puppy out of the deal .. i didn't want to be sorry i got him fixed.. but thank you all for the feedback