question re: conformation vs. work & contracts

[stale]

hi all.

first off, i personally am not interested in breeding. i own one fixed male rottie, a rescue from the SPCA, and am not particularly looking for another dog now.

i have been looking at local breeders though, mostly for some idea of how they operate and what they produce, since i am likely to get another dog in a few years.

what i'm wondering is about a trend i've noticed in most of the breeders i've found so far. it's an over-emphasis on conformation.

of the five folks i've talked to, four let me look over the pedigrees for their current bitches/studs. of those four, only one had ANY titling for working dog activities in their last 5 generations. i guess what i'm really curious about is, is this normal for rottweiler breeders??? granted, looking like a rottweiler should be important in terms of breeding, but without the working titles i'm left in serious doubt as to the dogs ability to preform in it's given field of work.

i grant you, i come from a biased point of view - i worked with a labrador breeder for years, and very few of her puppies ever came from a line that didn't have working titles on at least one side, if not both, in addition to the standard CH. rating. (yes, i say standard, because in my experience showing labs for conformation, some serious deviation from breed standard have managed to not only get titles, but place as best in show. needless to say, pretty dog titles don't impress me nearly as much as working dog titles do. it might look like a duck, walk like a duck, but if the critter can't swim or fly, it's just NOT a duck.)

i recognise that a lot of folks on this forum are a breeder, in one form or another, and i was just hoping for some feedback from them as to the importance they place on working vs. conformation titles.

and a completely seperate question, do any of the breeders on this list use a "breeding" contract? the very concept seemed alien to the rottweiler breeders i've talked to, but it's the contract on which i'd gotten all of my previous dogs.

essentially, the contract states that, barring health issues, or conformation DQ's, the dog in my possession shall NOT be altered until they are XX age. (XX normally being 3-4, to allow time to title the dog, work the dog, and generally prove it's a worthy breeding prospect.) the upshot of this was a saving on the initial cost of the dog, and knowledge that i'd be liable for reinbursment of the full price of a puppy in the event that i had the dog in question altered without the breeder's knowledge and consent. and of course the requirement that i be willing to invest the time and money training and showing the dog, and keeping the breeder updated (photo's and documentation) on the dog's development.

was i just lucky in my dealings with this woman? or is this actually a standard?

any input would be appreciated, and i apologise for the length of my post, but these things have been bothering me for a couple days now.

[dipper]

Good questions and observations Stale.

The short answer is yes, there is WAY to much emphasis on conformation and not enough on working ability here in the USA.

It is one of my biggest concerns with our breed. Anyone who has a litter of puppies in the USA is a "breeder".
Conformation work is very easy---the dog is what it is.
It takes MUCH MUCH more effort to title a dog in a working venue---you can't do it from your couch and you have to start with a dog or bitch that has the right temperament and qualities to be successful.
Just like your Labs---there are those that excel at the task they were bred for and those that don't--you wouldn't waste your time breeding inferior ( for the task) examples and then try to bill them as great hunting dogs.

More importantly with the Rottweiler, temperament should be the main concern of a breeder IMHO. A great looking stud or bitch should not be bred if he or she has a temperament fault---NO MATTER HOW NICE THEY ARE IN CONFORMATION.

A friend of mine owns/purchased a very beautiful bitch awhile back.
She had a bad temperament and failed every test she took.
To his credit he had her spayed and refused to breed her---many would not have done this.

So, great question---you are on your way to supporting the breeders that should be supported---do your homework and research---you'll be much happier in the long run.
I have been---my dogs have been just great with strong nerves,stable temperaments and the ability to do anything I have ever asked of them.

Rich

[Skip]

It's not JUST the breeders fault. There are a LOT of people that SAY they want a dog from good work and show lines so that they can do both with the dog, but then THEY NEVER WORK THE DOG THEY BOUGHT. This is another big reason why the working ability here in the US is getting watered down. It does take commitment and time to work a dog, but so does anything you want to do well. I was (and still am) amazed at how few rotts in the US get their breed test (Ztp/BST). The USRC organization says the BST is the "cornerstone of the breed", but very few do it. Proud to say my dog Shane has his.

[spidey]

I think over-emphasis on any one aspect of a breed is a mistake (and how you end up with what are essentially two different breeds within a breed, as happened with English Springer Spaniels, for example). Working ability (and proof thereof via titles) is very important, but, frankly, so is conformation, AND health, AND temperament. A dog of any breed should look like it should, act like it should and be able to do what it was originally intended to do (or at least show some indication of trainability, with some kind of performance titles).

[dipper]

Hi Skip,

I would suggest it IS the "breeders" fault from this standpoint:

If a person wants and purchases a dog from working lines for the benefits etc. that should be their choice whether they title the dog or not---IF THEY CHOOSE TO " HAVE A LITTER", THEN THEY BECOME A "BREEDER" AT THAT POINT and I believe should then have a BST,ZTP or similar title put on their dog---when and if THEY choose to breed it.

I would say that is the difference----Whether YOU BREED or not.
If you want to breed your dog or bitch get the titles---if you just want a pet, fine, then it's just you and your dog.

Congratulations on your great work with Shane, I hear he is a nice dog---good work!!

Rich

[targonrotts]

i title all my dogs in the back end primarily.male and female.
all my dogs have at least a CD or RN at minimum.
in conformation, they either have their CH or at least a good amount of points(but it does get expensive).
i am one of the few that even dwell in the sport of flyball with rottweilers!
i think it is important to prove your dog is more than just a pretty face.

as to breeding contract, everyone has a different version. i only do a puppy contract that states guarrantee,description,care,ect but i do not enforce a must breed contract. i am fine with a dog just going to a good pet home-the titling stuff is icing on the cake.

i also agree with skip. many people get a puppy, promise you the moon in showing and titling, and never do it. it does take committment,time and money...and not everyone is cut out to go thru with it.

[linedog]

Originally Posted by Skip

It's not JUST the breeders fault. There are a LOT of people that SAY they want a dog from good work and show lines so that they can do both with the dog, but then THEY NEVER WORK THE DOG THEY BOUGHT. This is another big reason why the working ability here in the US is getting watered down. It does take commitment and time to work a dog, but so does anything you want to do well. I was (and still am) amazed at how few rotts in the US get their breed test (Ztp/BST). The USRC organization says the BST is the "cornerstone of the breed", but very few do it. Proud to say my dog Shane has his.

I totally agree, the public dictates the ebb and floe of the working Rott. I was out of schutzhund and trial dogs for almost 18 years, two years ago circumstances afforded me the oppertunity to continue and I went looking for a dog.I was amazed at the lack of sport dogs compared to the 80's, many people I knew, no longer bred solid working dogs, mainly because of the scarcity of knowledgeable people to handle their dogs.I realize Germany's changed, there always has been predominately show or to a lesser degree work- sport in germany and as germany goes so go we, the prices of titled exports is astronomical now, and the public wants the show and go dogs with the "show" predominate.And I'm afraid it's just going to get worse.

[stale]

thank you all for the replies - i hadn't realised this was such an issue (or percieved issue) with rottweilers and the temperments they need to work.

funnily enough though, i refuse to call anyone who just slaps two dogs together to breed a breeder. in my mind, a breeder has a goal for their line. with my labs, they were all from the same lineage, and she'd been trying to breed down in size some. (the last bitch i had she refused to breed, because she had grown beyond the maximum height for labs.) the attitude, and willingness to work were there in all 4 animals (3 bitches, 1 dog) but of the 4, she only ever had one be bred. conformation perfect, attitude right, and she (the breeder) learned about the right stud to complement this at the right time.

guess it just means i've got to search more, and harder, when it comes time for me to add another dog to the household.

spidey, i do agree with you that there can be over-emphasis on any one aspect of the dog. but working a dog in their proper field is generally a measure of the temperment. i've always held that form will follow function. it's how the breeds developed in the first place.

take labs for an example. person A had a dog that wasn't gun shy, and liked swimming. person b had a dog that wasn't gun shy, and had a bit of a retrieval instinct. they bred them together hoping for dogs that were both tough (not gun/noise shy) good swimmings, and had a retrieval drive. enough generations of this pass, with more working traits looked for (waterproof coat, tall enough not to get swamped up in pondscum, longer muzzle for gripping birds, etc) and suddenly you have the conformation ideal for a dog.

oh, and i talked to marg with regards to the contracts that she used with me. turns out i was a "special case" :). she'd known me for years, and known that i had an interest in working my dogs, which made me perfect for her in terms of a "guardian of good breeding stock". i'm not sure if i'm flattered or not, but at least i understand a bit more now. not sure it's something i'd volunteer for again anyway. having two intact bitches in the house got to be interesting, sometimes.....

again, thanks all, for the replies. think i'll spend the next while seeing if there's not a Carting or Schutzhund organisation around me where i can talk to working dog owners, in addition to the gunning facility. (are there any other rottweiler oriented working groups beyond carting and the schutzhund? i know there are rotties at the gundog facility i used, but i also know that they weren't bred for that.)

peace!

stale

[linedog]

Stale you hit the nail on the head, With "form follows function"and if you add another old saying " beauty is as beauty does" you come up with the basic breeding concept of a working breed, the physical and mental ability to do it's intended purpose. You certainly have a background for sucess with this breed, My neighbor raises and trains field labs, what these dogs can do is amazing as is what he can do with them, and physically they are different than , shall we say your average LL Bean catalog dog.

[Carol Burke]

Like Jackie, I title my dogs on both ends. I think it is very important that any I consider breeding have the brains to do what they were bred for and the confirmation and temperament to be a credit to the breed.

[SABELLESMOM]

I'm not a breeder, tho I work to title my dogs at both ends. I do this because I believe they and the breed are better for it. I'm very proud of my girls.

Mine were bred for both conformation and work ability. There is not one missing work title in Rave's line. There are many CH's thruout, but not all. Rave's parents are out of titled German imports. Sable's line is all CH's with some working titles. Sire and dam are AKC and CKC CH's.

I'll tell you what. Even with a rescue, unpapered dog, or scrub, I would put a working title of some sort on it. The breed needs a job! Their minds need to be active. They need to be proud and confident.

Stale, I'm glad to hear your plans! Enjoy!

[Mick Trainer]

I would put up a differing point of view in that I believe that the current interpretation of the conformation standard is against the correct movement for a working Rottweiler, I also believe that the extremely high level of compliance with this standard needed to be successful in the show ring means that you can only truly breed for one thing and that the pursuit of both actually works against the breed, so I feel for these reasons (and others) that in the end we will be better to look, as the GSD has, for two truly destictivly different dogs from different lines who do different things as I feel that this will be the only way to hold onto the working Rottweiler. Now days I feel that by hanging onto the belief that we can have a dog that truly excels at both (by my standard of excel) when the confirmation standard required to do so is so high that we further discard dogs who are very much capable of working and thus further reduce an already small gene pool and if we continue as we are we will do so until it is to small for it's own good. To avoid this I feel that if we seek to hang onto the working Rottweiler then there must be a group of people who breed exclusively for that as there are with conformation at the present as it is the only way to trulyu create a gene pool that can excel at such work. This should not mean that a be shown or vice versa just that a breeder should have a clear idea of what he/she is breeding for and that that is their main focus and that they are willing to let slip a portion of the other to hold onto what they believe to be truly important whether it be work or conformation but to breed for both I find is to set ourselves up in the end to fail at both. I further agree that form does follow function and thus breeding for work will in the end set it's own standard through success or failure but I do feel in the end that there will be two distinctly different types of Rottweiler (who by the way could still fit into the standard but just not excell at both). Even now I see the truly great working dogs are often a little taller or leg, slighlty lighter boned, have a steeper croup, and I have just started to see the reintroduction of the double thigh. All these things help a dog work harder and longer than the current interpretation of the standard as I see it being applied.

Maybe in the end we are better to discard the working ability of the Rottweiler altogether, but thats a different discussion and a sad day indeed.

Mick.

P.S. I should also add that I don't think that the temperament encouraged in the conformation ring is adventages to working ability.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by SABELLESMOM

Mine were bred for both conformation and work ability. There is not one missing work title in Rave's line. There are many CH's thruout, but not all. Rave's parents are out of titled German imports. !

wow you should post her pedigree its always interesting to see a dog that someones happy with and where it came from

[Carol Burke]

Mick, I truly hope that you are wrong, especially about temperament. Many years ago I bred GSDs and they have certainly been divided into show and working which IMO destroyed the breed. What a shame. Although I hope you are wrong I see the same signs in Rottweilers, over angulation, flat croups and suspect temperament in the show ring.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Carol Burke

Many years ago I bred GSDs and they have certainly been divided into show and working which IMO destroyed the breed. What a shame. .

actually it is the only thing that saved the breed otherwise we would be plagued with gsd that are crippled by the time they are 5 and little or no working ability. for the most part working breeders know that if your dog doesnt meet the tandards of the breed it more than likely cant perform work well either notice i said meeting the standard not setting the standard as show/work/ show breeders try to do and you will never make these people believe that there show stock will not work because through there lines they have gimmee titles given by breed specific venues many of the same dogs that title in rottweiler only events would be laughed at in a usa or dvg trial and the same goes for gsd's that are titled in the german shepherd dog club of america not to say that there arent good dogs in these venues