Breeder's opinion about Immune Mediated Disease

[royalarrival]

As some of you are aware, I had lost Daisy to Immune Disease. Cancer was never ruled out, but no tests showed it. Since Immune Mediated Disease was mentioned by the vet I have been researching it. Some research has linked the disease to genetics. Some dogs that are gentically prone to this disease can very well live a full life without a problem. That the disease needs a trigger (injury, vaccines, enviroment, other medical condition) for it to show it's ugly head. I would like to know from the breeders there opinion on this disease. What testings (if available) are being done for those that are in your breeding program. Any info will help me better understand this disease. As well as, what questions should a potential buyer ask the breeder about their program regarding this issue. Thanks in advance.

Diane

[lblax]

i too lost a dog to this his trigger was a lymes vaccination. he was worked on by several vets and our vet was in constant contact with jean dodd and she re ran blood work. i really dont know if it is hereditary but i also dont believe there is screening tests available either. even to truly diagnose it is extreamly diffecult. and unfortunatly the treatment is as bad or not worse than the disease

[royalarrival]

Thank you Larry. I was hoping for more breeders responses to this. Could this be due to the newness of this disease. (I am not sure if the disease itself is new, but the awareness is on the rise.) The studies I have researched seemed to be in the baby stages. Are clubs that breeders are in talking about this disease? Are there any breeders looking into this disease to see if the current studies show validation? If a breeder has breeding stock with history of any type of Immune disease, what choices are they making? Are the dogs still used for breeding? What about the pups? Are they showing signs of the disease? So many questions, I know! Please bare with me. I just want a better understand of this disease. If it is genetic, like the current studies show, what is being done to correct this problem?

[lblax]

I'm not a breeder but i have done tons of research on it and i truly don't believe that you could even trace it lets say you follow the same line of dogs for years say a thousand pups and 20 died of immunity disease was it a fluke a mis diagnosis were the other 980 prone but never encountered there trigger???? see what i mean. research on something like this needs to focus on the treatment for now. i do believe that over vaccinating has a part but the risk of over vaccinating is far less than a population of under vaccinated animals, and i do believe that people over supplemant there animals things that boost the immune system backfire on you when an immune system disease hits you because this means you immune system is over stimulated and now your own body is the target. i believe feed a good quality food (the best you can comfortably afford) and leave it at that

[frontierrots]

There are no tests currently available to check and see if a dog is susceptible to immune mediated disease or carries it

The dogs I have seen with it as clients (boarding kennel) all had vaccines as a trigger.

Personally I think most vets way way overvaccinate their clients dogs. Many also combine vaccinations, wormers, surgeries or flea products (given the same day) or give them to sick or just unwell animals. Those are recipies for disaster

IF I as a breeder started to see a trend in such a thing in the dogs I bred, then yes I would assume it hereditary but as of now, it seems to be one of those things a breeder may never see. Even though I as a kennel manager saw several such dogs as my clients. Interesting point was that NO two were the same breed OR owned by the same owner

[royalarrival]

Thank you Diane.

I came across a bearded collie site that is pushing for more studies on immune mediated disease. This lead me to research Rotti's to see if there is a group that is pushing for the same thing. The search lead me to CHIC. Are you familiar with this organization? They are working together with other organizations like OFA. I found some immune diseases they are working on, but no real push like other diseases. It was very interesting to read their theory on vertical pedigree and why it is important.

I agree on over vaccinating is a problem. I only vaccinated what was required by law.
Diane

[royalarrival]

I have another question for you Diane. If you were to notice a immune disease in one of your breeding dogs, would you continue to breed that dog?

So far the info I get is this disease does have strong connection with genetics, but studies are limited and there for can't say for sure.

A local lab breeder near me bred a bitch. The bitch developed a immune skin disease after whelping. The pups appear to be normal, but this disease is brought on by a trigger. The bitch trigger was the pups. The breeder might breed her again.
Personnally IMHO, this breeder is a BYB and shouldn't be breeding in the first place. She had 6 litters from 3 days to 5 wks of age. All were labs and one a short hair pointer. She is in the process of adding Pomeranian (sp). She breeds to sell as pets. She mentioned she would like to show.

Diane

[frontierrots]

There isn't a big "push" for research in the Rottweiler breed on immune type diseases because they are not a very common problem, breed wide yet.

The current issues of importance in the breed are
Cardiac (sub aortic stenosis)
Elbows (true elbow dysplasia- FCP, UAP, type)
cancers
blown knees
bloat
Hip dysplasia

plus to a lesser extent
intestinal type diseases (some of which are immune related)
eye disorders

The skin disorder you are referring to, is it generalized demodectic mange? Localised is common in pups, especially stressed ones but Generalised is indeed hereditary. Generalised is a body wide form while localised is small spots typically on the head and throat. Generalised demodex can go into hiding and then be brought back out with a stress like rearing a litter. I know several people who have had dogs get generalised and they all ended up being put down

IF I had a dog that developed a heritable condition or any immune related disease, then of course that dog would not be bred and the disorder would be analysed to determine if that dogs decendents would be at risk for passing it alone

[royalarrival]

The breeder did not state what kind of skin disorder by name. She said the bitch developed a skin disorder after whelping the pups. The bitch lost all her hair. The vet diagnosed the bitch with immune mediated disease. The pups where fine by appearance at point of exam. The bitch is on meds and recovery fine. She will have to take meds for rest of life. The breeder did not state what kind of meds.
(I was not there to purchase a pup. My daughter was there for a party given by classmate. My curiosity lead me to the whelping basement and a list of questions.)

Now I understand why I am not finding more info about this disease in Rotties. Due to the difficulty on diagnosing this disease (in certain situations), would you agree that more Rotties could have this and are not diagnosed correctly?

What would be your suggestions for a potential buyer? If a breeder does have all the required health certificates for known problems in Rotties, should the buyer to question on immune diseases?

Now that I can think more logically about my decision about the future since Daisy is gone. I know there will be another dog in my life. Not now. It is to soon to bring a new member into the home. My family have decided to wait a year minimal. But when that time comes, I want to be sure we will spare are new member and family this pain as much as possible.

[lblax]

The bitch is on meds and recovery fine. She will have to take meds for rest of life. The breeder did not state what kind of meds.

meds for immune desease is generally predninsone and sometimes cancer drugs that shut down the immune system. the disease is a overactive immune system not one that is low.

[frontierrots]

When looking at a breeder of course the dogs should have their health clearances (hips and heart -by cardiologist- at minimum with hips, elbows, heart and eyes being preferred)

But you should always ask what other health "things" they have seen in their dogs

What you describe with the Lab does sound like GENERALISED Demodex (as opposed to localised, they are very different). a dog with generalised demodex should never be bred (or in this case re bred) and I'm not sure I'd be breeding any of the offspring

[royalarrival]

Thank you so much for everyone's input. I appreciate it. I will continue to follow this disease as more info becomes available.

My very last question and then I will put this to rest for now. What are your opinions on DNA testing? Are potential owners able to request a DNA test before purchase? Would this be practical and give more reassurance on the health and pedigree of the pup?
O.K. that was 3 questions, but they go with each other.

Diane

[frontierrots]

the ONLY DNA tests currently available to rottweiler breeders are DNA ID which will ID the parents and confirm that the pup is indeed who it should be. I think breeding dogs certainly should be DNA'd but it is not mandatory nor anything MOST pet buyers need to worry about

The other is Long coat DNA test. This will tell you if a dog is clear or a carrier or affected with the long coat gene. Again not really anything a pet owner needs to worry about

Other than that there are no DNA tests for hip or elbow dysplasia, not heart or eye problems. Not yet anyway

[royalarrival]

Thank you frontierrots. The information will be put to good use.
Again thank you!
Diane