The Decision To Breed or Not To Breed

[kclinch]

I have a 1 yr old bitch, out of Wollman's lines. I am not overly thrilled with the people involved there, but I am thrilled with the bitch that I have.
She has a very laid back temperament, that will fire when I ask her to, and yet can do a down stay in a restaurant for hours at a time with no thought to it.
I have done pre-lim hip/elbow ex rays, and will be doing them again as soon as I return from showing some Beaucerons at the World Dog Show in Mexico City Memorial Day weekend. I have had her thyroid tested, she has been recently CERF'd(altho, I would have expected my papers back, as that happened at a AKC Sanctioned Match a bit over a month ago...)
Largo is not "show quality" but is conformation correct. She currently has her SG-1 Rating and her National Championship under the IABCA Venue. She took 3rd place in group at a recent match---but she isn't "pretty" enough to compete in the AKC show ring against some of the dogs there.
She has three CGC's on her, all under separate judges. She was first tested for a CGC, but not "given" the award when she was 4 months old(Dog has to be 6 months old before AKC will give the Certificate.)
She placed 1 in Pre-Novice Obedience, and 2nd in Novice B, at a match recently.
She is great with kids, cats, and other animals.
She has had a great directed retrieve, motivational only, since October of last year(she was about 7-8 months old at the time)
I will not breed her without the following in place:
OFA Prelims(Depends on when she comes in heat---if she comes in heat when she is 22 months, I may go ahead and breed her, other wise, more exrays and OFA her) Or OFA. If She comes into heat around 22 months, she will still be OFA'd after weaning puppies.
CERF
Obedience Title/Rally Title
She will be CGC'd at every dog show in the area that offers it.
She is a working Assistance dog.(Except when she is in heat)
IABCA International Championship
I currently have 5 people who have expressed interest, and are willing to post a non-refundable deposit on a puppy out of her.
She will only be bred to an OFA male, who meets my criteria for a dog.
Some of my "contractual rules" are as follows:
To Purchase a puppy:
1) You must prove that you can afford one. Generally that means putting a
non-refundable deposit down on the dog. If the puppy doesn't live, then you get your money back. If you decide that you don't want it, for whatever reason, you don't get your money back.
2) You must provide references. Vet and personal
3) I have a background check done on you. No drug related convictions(altho, I do have a funny regarding that), and no violent convictions.
4) Dogs are sold on limited registration until the age of 18 months. You
provided hip exrays, and show me the dog, or where he has placed at a dog
show(showing confirmation This can be done at an IABCA show, or even at an AKC Match), and finish all other requirements, I will release the limited registration(providing hips are good)
5) You are required to take the puppy through a balanced puppy, basic and
advanced obedience class, or have the dog professionally, privately trained, or put a CD on the dog before it is 1 yrs old, or you loose the dog. Period. No money back. IF you live close enough to me, basic obedience is provided free of charge at times and places of my choosing(My home, my dates and times...Generally once a month on a Sunday AM)
6) Pet qualities are to be spayed/neutered by 9 months. Proof is to be
provided. Otherwise, I repossess the dog.
7) You agree to feed a quality food, keep current on vaccinations or titer
testing, and have regular checkups.
8) If for any reason you cannot keep the dog, it comes back to me.
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Now, I do do rescue. I take in about 3-4 dogs a year, into my two bedroom townhouse with my fenced back yard, and train and then place them in good loving homes with free follow up obedience lessons(I am a professional dog trainer)

My pups go for around $1000.00. I do give a limited hip guarantee(I give a pup back to them for the price of a pet quality puppy, or I give them the difference back---Pet quality pups from a decent breeder run around $500.00, so they get $500.00 back) I do not do this until such time as the dog has been spayed/neutered. I do not need the papers back, as the pups left on Limited registration anyway.

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So, does this make me a backyard breeder? Because my bitch isn't the "Best" quality out there?

Or, am a I decent breeder, providing puppies for good people, who, for all intents and purposes, have no desire to show, etc...
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For those of you who have dogs and you want to breed them, if you follow the above guidelines, you might find that you don't get "berated" on this list quite as badly

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For those of who are "berating"....I agree with you that there are many out there who don't think things through....I agree that there are many "Idiots" out there.

But, rather than "beating them up", lets make an effort to "kindly" educate them.

Remember, Positive Re-enforcement goes much further than Negative Re-enforcement....

Just a few thoughts!

[Ayoka]

Two things that would make me look at another breeder based oin the bitch alone.

-Breeding before 24 months (if she's that great it won't kill to wait until the final OFA's)

-Titles: I think that I would look for a dog that had more than a CD. This is my own preference and will make it undoubtedly harder to find a pup when I'm ready but I would like some assurance that the parents were capeable of MORE than the first title and some indication that the breeder has some experience training and titling in obedience.

I'm not hardcore into obedience yet but I tink that it is some indication of a dogs working abiity that could be used when considering a dog for other sports. Of course if I decided on only doing Agility or Flyball I'd look for a puppy with titled flyball or agility dogs in the pedigree. If this was the case HEALTH would be even more important as these sports are not for dogs with poor structure.

Furthermore I see no reason to do numerous CGC's.

puppy Selection - I would want to know how you plan on selecting dogs for homes...would you be evaluating yourself or having someoner come in to do it. Would that person be considered an expert? Would you be willing to let someone I have chose evaluate the dog after you/your evaluator have made your choice? If for distance reasons how long would I ahve to get the puppy evaluated before I could return the puppy for refund?

Bakground checks-In Canada these cannot be done by YOU and you have to ask me to have one done. Even them I'm not sure this would be worth it. there are WAY more violent people than are convicted and even fewer animal abusers are convicted.

I am not experienced but these are things that I have learned on here, or through the mistakes of friends, that I need to look for and things that I would ask.

[Zephir]

WAIT until AFTER you have her OFA's completed at 24 months - big deal if you have to wait 4-6 months longer to breed her.

Placements at matches do not matter.

Multiple CGC's do not matter - this is a one time test. Testing a dog at 4, 6 months does not matter - it's still a puppy and puppies can change,

IABCA championships do not matter as you can have a "championship" without beating a single dog.

Please put obedience titles on your dog, and don't count the placements at matches. And BST would be icing on the cake.

Conformationaly speaking, an SG-1 rating is good. Is this from a youth class? Please show her more in USRC or AKC to get more unbiased opinions of your dog.

Only accept the very best stud dog, ie, health clearences, OB titles, breed test, conformation titles, etc. if you are hell bent on breeding her.

You should never, ever, ever breed until you have proven your dog in OB, conformation, and health clearances.

At this point, I wouldn't even worry with the puppy contract because you have a lot of work left to do with your girl now.

I commend you for throwing yourself out there like this...please listen to everyone's comments.

[s1960]

It looks like you are trying very hard to be thorough. Personally, and just my opinion, for all you want from me I don't see where I'm getting enough in return. I am more then willing to prove myself as the right owner to a breeder of the dog I want but I want to see a little more history(maybe not the perfect choice of words)from the breeder also. No offence maybe my opinion of what I like or expect from a Rottweiler doesn't match with yours.

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by s1960

It looks like you are trying very hard to be thorough. Personally, and just my opinion, for all you want from me I don't see where I'm getting enough in return. I am more then willing to prove myself as the right owner to a breeder of the dog I want but I want to see a little more history(maybe not the perfect choice of words)from the breeder also. No offence maybe my opinion of what I like or expect from a Rottweiler doesn't match with yours.

I agree!
I would want to see more from this dog than multiple CGC...and some legs to her CD.

I think you should wait till she is 24 months and get her OFA's..prelims are not enough. I would also want to know her pedigree. What ratings have her littermates had? What about her sire and dam? What about aunt's, uncles, grandsire, grandame?
The sire should also be titled in conformation and have ALL of the health tests done and have some sort of working titles (not CGC).

Your dog may be the fluke dog with good hips ....and maybe the rest of the dogs are failing or just so-so, or there is no history.
She also needs her elbows OFA'd and her heart too. The heart should be done by a certified cardiologist.

Have you got a mentor? Someone that could help you to network to find good puppy homes?

Not so sure why you are repeating getting her CGC test? Any dog with a bit of obedience should be able to pass it. It's nice to have on a dog....but it should not make a dog breedable because it does.

Gina

[Ayoka]

I have to agree about the CGC, I see it as a bare minimum and breeding dogs must be held to a higher standard. Good start but definitely not a deal maker (or breaker) for me.

On another note, even if the pupies were to go to family homes as pets I think that dogs with parents who's drives and temperment have been put to the test will produce more balanced dogs.

Which brings me to the whole other aspect of breeding I truly don't understand...you need to breed for not only good health and conformation but also for good TEMPERMANT and I think this is more than breeding two dogs who are "good with kids" together. A lot of obedience work is ring specific and I'd like to know how the sire/dam handle stress/unexpected situations. (BST, TT). Breeding dogs with unsound temperment (even if they are healthy) is JUST as bad, in my opinion, as breeding dysplastic dogs...probably worse as our breed has been the object of BSL not because of hip displaysia but because of poor temperment (wether due to poor training or poor breeding).

You'd DEFINITELY need a mentor for this...and to choose the right male to compliment other aspects of your bitch.

[hcelsa]

Every COE (Code of Ethics) club whose mandatory practices I've read and/or signed has a 24 month/OFA hip requirement prior to breeding (I really, really wish they'd add at the very least HEARTS to those but that's another issue). It's just not ethical to breed a dog before all those very important health clearances are completed (and that's a bare minimum for breeding "readiness").

Please don't be in a rush to breed! Spend the next 2-3 years proving your girl, and then make the decision whether to breed or not. It sounds like she's a very nice girl who is capable of obedience titles at the very least . If her gene's are truly worth adding to the gene pool you owe it to her and her future puppies to prove their worth.

Also, try to get as much health and temperament information about her siblings as possible before you finalize any breeding plans. I did an OFA search on the kennel name you mentioned and came up with only two dogs (one born in 2000, the other in 1989) .

[warrior1]

I think we may have dogs that are related. You can see his photos in the gallery. I believe they may have come from the same place. He is line bred on Mambo von der Teufelsbrucke. My boy is 18 month old now. He is beautiful and his temperment is fabulous. I am very pleased with him. Last night was our first night of yet another obedience class. I will have his hips, elbows ect. evaluated for my own satisfaction. However, I choose to have him neutered. I was waiting until he was 18 months old to do so. Sound like your girl is on her way to some great accomplishments. As far as breeding goes, I'll leave that to the professionals. Best of luck to you and your girl, I'd love to see pictures.

[Sharon Marples]

Why are you in such a hurry?

Just because you have done prelim's on her does not mean a thing. She is still not legally certified. do both of her parents have titles and all health certifications (hips, heart, eyes and elbows)?

In order to fall under the category of an ethical breeder you should wait until you have OFA certifications back on her hips, elbows, heart and a CERF on her eyes. There is no excuse not to do so! To breed her before she is certified and titled just says that you are in it for the money and that you don't care if the bitch you breed is deserving to be bred.

She should have more than just a CD or CGC. Those are relatively very easy titles to attain and most dogs can breeze through them with no problems.

An IABCA Int'l Ch. really means nothing. You can attain that title with almost no competition. She should attain a Siegerin rating, a V-1 or an AKC Championship which will prove she has competed against other bitches and shown that she adheres to the breed standard of the organization she is competing in. Or, some advanced working titles.

Why do you request a non-refundable deposit? In our opinion, if someone changes their minds after putting a deposit down, we are more than happy to refund their money. If they don't want one of our pups, then we don't want them having one! I think deposits are very unfair to people. Things change in people's lives, if they put a deposit down months in advance of a litter being born, things could change that could prevent them from wanting a puppy at the time they are ready to go.

What is your "criteria" for an "OFA" male? Working titles? Conformation titles? All health stats to include hips, elbows, hearts and eyes? If you have that criteria for a male, why not your bitch? If you breed to a male without these items, then again, not breeding quality.

Some of your contract terms are also a bit disconcerting to me:

#1 is very unfair. As I said, things in life change.

Who will be doing the temperament testing and structure critiques on your puppies? It should be a professional skilled in doing them correctly. The temperament test needs to be done by a stranger to the puppies. It would be very unfair of you to place a puppy in a home just because you have a deposit on it if that puppy was not suited for exactly what the people wanted to do with it.

#4 You will allow someone to have full registration on a dog once it hits 18 months of age? What does that prove? A dog cannot be certified until ilt is at least two years of age for elbows and hips. Placing at a show or match where there is only one (or none) in the class is NO indicator that the dog has correct structure and movement. Again, a prelim does not prove the dog will pass OFA. And again, placing at an IABCA show means nothing in the whole picture of the dog in terms of structure.

#5 The puppy classes are great, but if that is all you require or they loose the dog that is just plain irrational. They could not put a CD on the dog if they didn't take obedience classes (for most people) and the requirements of this section really don't make any sense. And for you to say you will take the dog back is again, very unfair.

What is your "limited" hip guarantee? You either guarantee them or you don't. They should be guaranteed to pass OFA with any rating or else you will refund the difference or replace the pup for the difference in money. I don't understand your term "limited" on this.

To me, just the fact that you will consider breeding her before she is two, titled with a AKC championship or advanced working title and the fact that you will release limited registration on her pups before they are two years of age and OFA cleared and titled makes you a BYB. It makes no difference that you are selling to people who are not going to show, your breeding stock still needs to be health certified and proven in the show ring.

If you question why I have these statements, just go and take a look on PetFinders.com and see how many of these "dogs bred for pets only" are listed on the site and trying to find good homes.

Please take some additional time to get her health certifications, to work with her in the AKC rings in both breed and obedience and to really prove that she should be bred. Besides that, you 'd be surprised at how much fun you will have!

[s1960]

Karla, as I look at your website and see all that you have going on I'm curious why you want to breed at all?

[Sharon Marples]

I just visited your website and am very disheartened to show what you have listed on it:

"This was written by Bob Yarnell,SR, owner of Kimbertal Kennels. Below is a link to their site.

ATTENTION: Kimbertal Kennels has a litter of Rotties that will be available as of July 19, 2005.

Kimbertal breeds only stock that is OFA'd, and they offer an excellent guarantee on their dogs! Their prices are more than reasonable.

Every Kimbertal dog I have ever met, whether Rottie or Dobie has been a wonderful tempered, good looking animal!

Please contact them at the website and phone number listed below for more information.

************************************************** ************************************************** *******

Are you not aware that Kimbertal is one of the BIGGEST puppy mills in the states, that they do NOT do all required health certifications and DO NOT title their breeding stock?? I am speechless......

[observer]

Your website raises another question. You had a litter from another female Dec 06 (have no idea what was done re: this girl before she was bred) Didn't you have a puppy contract for those 11 pups?

I agree with Sharon's comments, several of which have been addressed by others as well.

EDIT: Sharon was posting the Kimbertal comments as I was posting. I certainly agree with her there too!

[observer]

Two thousand dollars for a puppy is not, to my mind, "more than reasonable".

[Gunsey'sMom]

To the OP, do a search here for Kimberatal please, and do some reading.

[Sharon Marples]

I also see that the sire of your litter that was whelped in 12/2006, "Ivan Von Der Korperkraft" has no health certifications listed with OFA.

And I also find no OFA results on your "Balla Von Euro," the dam of a litter listed on your webpage.