Kimbertal Kennels

[reif]

Some people said that the pups they ordered
were sick and some accuse them of
disregard for standard breeding practices.
In my opinion both are forms of abuse.
I dont condone any form of abuse to any type
of living critter.

And as I said before, the more you sell, the more complaints. This true to any business.

The rotty I saw was about 140 lbs but very
muscular. I asked specificly why he was so
large and some smaller. When we went to
the puppy area the litters themself really answered that question. There was a few pounds difference in them all. Some were
obviously larger and then some smaller.
NOTE: All from the same litter.

My 8 year old rotty has had 3 big offspring
out of 5 litters. usually 4-8 per litter
and only one was ever still born.
Average male weight 100 lbs. full grown.

She is 75lbs
She has no arthritis, she is getting a slight
cloudiness in her eyes but that is basicly
old age cataracts. All her teeth are healthy
and she has a clean bill of health as of
January. When I tell people she is 8 they
usually say "Eight months ?"

So, you have to understand my disbelief.
I have a happy little 16 week old puppy
sitting here and a happy healthy 8 year old.

I cannot speak on behalf of the training
methods they use. I never return after
the purchase. They didnt even recognize me.

After reading all the posts I really scrutinized my second purchase from them.
The allegations I read just werent present.

Sometimes when you are the best you are also
criticized the hardest. In all honesty
dont you think that is part or whole
of whats happening ?

[CarolineS]

I've searched their website upside down and backwards, and although they have guarantees splashed all over the place, no where did I see any of their dogs with OFA ratings beside their names. All of the Rottie sires they're so proud of are probably dead by now, and there wasn't anything outstanding there to begin with. I think one of them had a CH before his name, one had a working title and those were so long ago, they're hardly relevant today. Anything bred after the mid-80's is completely out of standard. I guess they don't have to worry about refunding any of the price for titles gained in the conformation ring, since any male over 27" is considered to have a serious fault.

Their guarantees mean very little when you figure anyone discovering their dog has a medical problem will more than likely be so attached to it that there is no way they will ship it back for a replacement. I notice they don't offer refunds of the purchase price for dogs with hip dysplasia.

Since I don't see any evidence of health testing of any kind (except for the useless 18 month x-rays), who knows what their dogs carry in their genes. Unless your bitch was certified by the OFA, CERF, and checked for SAS, who knows what she passed on in those 5 litters. You will never convince any knowledgeable Rottweiler owner or breeder that this kennel is anything more than a puppy mill.

The main purpose of this Discussion Group is to promote responsible Rottweiler breeding and ownership and to help educate people on the breed standards. I'm sure you love your dogs very much, as we all do, and you've been lucky not to have encountered health problems with them, but you just can't argue with the statistics. You don't get the dubious honor of being one to the top three kennels in the state with the most complaints registered against it and have 25% of the dogs in the Dobe Rescue attributed directly to your kennel, by being a reputable, code-of-ethics breeder.



[This message has been edited by CarolineS (edited March 08, 2000).]

[AngelBunny]

CarolineS:

Well said!

reif:

Please don't be so defensive. You are *very* lucky that your dog hasn't had problems. CarlineS is on the mark when she says that you'll never convince any knowledgeable Rottie owner or breeder that this kennel is anything more than a puppy mill.

There's only one standard for Rotties; this, however, doesn't seem to concern this kennel since they offer Rotties in three sizes--"Standard Size Family Companion & Potection"; "Above Standard & Pick of Litter"; and "Show Quality & Superior Size -When Available"--with the price actually increasing as the size of the dog increases!
Buy from this kennel and the more your dog is out of standard, the more you pay!

[reif]

Sounds like you have been their competition
in some form, Caroline. You have gone to
alot of trouble to discredit them, more then
someone in casual conversation would do.

Your statistics are easily argued.
They are based on complaints issued.
The only true stat which would matter would
be based on how many rotts are sold and
the percentage that have problems.
If they sell the most they will have the
most!

You could be selling litters where 50%
of the pups die from a genetic heart defect
and you'd never be listed in the categories
they are.

Their volume is so high that when
they are in the top of any category it's
to be expected.

What really confuses me is the how willing
you and others are to believe the worst.
The letter posted above says a man paid
$350.00 for a purebred rott from Kimbertal.
Thats the most obvious B.S. story I have
ever seen. You cant even touch the middle
line of rotts for less then $600.00.

Everyone wanted to believe that story so
bad they couldn't see the obvious.

The main purpose of this Discussion Group
is to promote responsible Rottweiler breeding
and ownership and to help educate people on
the breed standards. Not to repeat hearsay
and conjecture...

Therefore, I can only assume you must have
first hand knowledge.

Caroline, please relate to me your first hand, personal experiences with kimbertal.

[Nancy Estes]

Reif - "Sounds like you have been their competition
in some form, Caroline. You have gone to
alot of trouble to discredit them, more then
someone in casual conversation would do."

Caroline is not a breeder and never has been; therefore, she is not in competition with Kimbertal. Also, she does not live in the US.

Most of us who feel that Kimbertal is not an ethical breeder know people who have had first-hand experience with having bought a dog or dogs from them. Obviously, these experiences, as reported to us, have not been good.

I subscribe to the AKC Awards magazine. They have a quarterly listing of all OFA hips and elbows, as well as CERF. I do not recall seeing a Kimbertal Rottweiler listed in any category. This would support the argument that they do not do hip or eye screening on any of their breedng stock.


Reif - "Sometimes when you are the best you are also criticized the hardest. In all honesty dont you think that is part or whole
of whats happening ?"

What do you think they are the "best" at?


Nancy


------------------
von Dorow Rottweilers
doggo1@apex2000.net

[This message has been edited by Nancy Estes (edited March 08, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Nancy Estes (edited March 08, 2000).]

[reif]

Nancy, thankyou for your valid commentary.
I was really hoping you were going to tell
me you had first hand experience.
Regardless, you have a valid point.

What would be your best bet as to why they
do not list their hip or eye screening on any of their breedng stock ?

Are you convinced that their breedng stock
is completely compromised ?

Are there any factual statistics that I could
see ? All I see here is a report that says
SPCA lists Kimbertal as one of the state's
top three sources of dog complaints.

Well considering they probably have the
highest sales volume in PA thats actually
not a big suprise now is it ?

Thats similiar to saying McDonalds
has the highest rate of rat feces in their
hamburgers. Well they do sell 2 billion
hamburgers a year. It's a misleading
statistic isnt it ?

Right now I am the only person in this
thread with first hand knowledge.

And, I am looking at 2 very healthy and
happy pups from Kimbertal.

[Nancy Estes]

"Are you convinced that their breedng stock
is completely compromised ?"

The AKC publication is factual. Only information on dogs that have been certified is published. If no Kimbertal dogs are published as being certified, none are. You can also go to their web site and check under Kimbertal and see what dogs from the kennel have been certified. I have not checked the OFA site in some time & don't remember details on the information on dates on certification. Some Kimbertal dogs are, obviously, OFA certified by their new owners. The question is how many are certified each year (breeding animals) by Kimbertal Kennels. I think it is safe to assume that, if they do not place a premium on OFA or CERF certifications, they also do not check for SAS, cardiomyopathy or Von Willebrand's Disease.

A look at the AKC Stud Book gives some indication of how many litters they breed each year - a very minimal idea as once a dog or bitch has appeared in the Stud Book, they do not appear again when/if they are bred again.

You seem to be equating the fact that they are one of the largest kennels in PA with their being the best. Again, I'd like to know what they are "best" at, other than producing a very large number of puppies each year.

I have never bought a dog from Kimbertal. I do know people who have. One was a very nice looking dog that, as far as I know, was healthy, although no health checks or hip x-rays were ever done on him. However, he did not have a great temperament and the buyer was never able to get registration papers for the dog. By the time I got into Rottweilers I had been in dogs long enough not to trust their advertising, had met enough people with dogs from Kimbertal that did not meet the breed standard or had health problems, so was not interesting in buying from them.

Nancy

------------------
von Dorow Rottweilers
doggo1@apex2000.net



[This message has been edited by Nancy Estes (edited March 08, 2000).]

[Sandy Caruso]

Reif:
I have had DIRECT experiences with Kimbertal...three of them to be exact. No, I didn't and wouldn't purchase a dog or puppy from them HOWEVER, I have had three unsuspecting owners who did and YES they did get burned. Two of the owners had dogs that looked more like black and tan hounds than Rottweilers and they both (litter-mates) had serious hip dysplasia. All parties were offered free replacements with the following conditions:
1. They could not have been bred (1 had sired four litters)
2. They could not have had parvo. (Two had and survived)
3. The owners had to pay all shipping costs along with the shipping costs of the new replacement puppies. (since these owners lived on the west coast that was substantial)

The end result...one male was put down due to extraordinary pain from the hip dysplasia. The other male sired SEVERAL other litters which carry the same looks and YES bad hips.
The third one, a bitch was spayed but died at the tender age of 4 due to a genetic heart problem.
Perhaps your experience has been good, better consider yourself lucky.
IN MY OPINION, Kimbertal is a glorified and obviously CLEAN "puppy mill" with great marketing and advertising skills. Their ads are misleading as their two primary stud dogs, one from England and the other from Austria have long since DIED. They breed at a voracious rate with no thought of protecting the integrity and quality of the breed. Producing over a 100 litters since the early 1980's is not an acceptable breeding practice. It's called "MASS PRODUCTION" and the bottom line is "MONEY"!!!

[CarolineS]

reif,

To quote you, "Sounds like you have been their competition
in some form, Caroline. You have gone to
alot of trouble to discredit them, more then
someone in casual conversation would do."

As Nancy said, I have never been a breeder and I'm not American, so what they do or don't do has absolutely no impact on me or my income. My best friend was a top Canadian breeder for just over 15 years, so I've seen how a code-of-ethics breeder operates. Kimbertal was never any competition for her, her pups were sold two years before they were even born. Her dogs were never bred unless they were rated OFA good or excellent. We won't even get into the conformation and working titles they had to have.

No, my interest is purely one of trying to do all that I can to help educate people on what makes a great Rott and how to recognize a good breeder. I have no first-hand experience with Kimbertal; I would never even consider buying a dog from there. Saying that people are just "jealous" of Kimbertal is pretty silly, none of the breeders on this board is in it for the money, none of them make their living selling dogs. They are in it for the pure pleasure of owning this breed and trying to improve it. Since Kimbertal doesn't appear to show its dogs in any venue, I doubt any jealousy comes into it there either. If it's not in the ring, it can't be competition.

[Sandy Caruso]

Ask for a list of clients who have purchased their pups from Kimbertal and keep in mind they won't give you the names of anyone who has complained. Check with the Better Business Bureau and the local county recorder for judgements regarding small claims actions. It's amazing what court records will show. Advise "Buyer Beware" In my opinion it doesn't make any difference how long someone has been in business. It's more important to me the KIND of business (quality)they have. There are lots of 'puppy mills' that have been in business 20 to 30+ years as well. It doesn't mean they are doing a GOOD job or their pups are quality it only means they are making money at it or they wouldn't continue.
Consider: if you purchase puppy that develops genetic default when it is older, how are you going to feel when you have to put the dog down? Will a replacement puppy fix the trauma or heartache?

[reif]

Theres no such thing as a replacement
puppy. And their warranty had no bearing
on my purchase. I have my 8 year old here
in prime shape. I jog with her 3 times a day !
She is a direct contradiction to the statements
on this board.

My vet has a kimbertal rott, the lady
at my pet store owns 5 ! A man in their
waiting room said he has 4. All of them
in fantastic shape...no complaints.

As far as the warranty...
I think it would be better if they offered
a 100% refund/return policy rather than a
replacement. If the pup is abused give them
their money back and tell the owner to get lost!

I always offered a full refund return policy.
I would rather have the pup back and lose
the money then have some moron throw it
out the window on a busy highway. Replacement
should be on a case to case basis and not policy.

( btw, thanks for all comments on this topic.
It has been a very pleasant and productive
thread. :-)

[Eliza]

While I've not had personal experience with the named Kennel I would not consider purchasing a puppy from them. Why put yourself in that position when there are kennels with good reputations out there.

[Vision]

Well take it from the man with all the experience and knowledge first hand. don't go their. STORM, some members remember my posting she had a temperament problem so bad she could not stay in my home.Beautiful looking Rottie could have won best of breed for looks.but temperament no way.still to this date don't know who the mother was and no papers.the AKC did fine them. big deal they pay the fine nothing new to them. also 20+ puppies waiting to replace your sick one. please do the math!!

[reif]

Like I said, I do not work for Kimbertal.
I do not have training there either.
And, I did come here and join this forum
for educated conversation.

After posts from people who had first
hand knowledge were included in this thread
I did make about 10 phone calls to local
rott groups and Vet hospitals.

I was able to get the phone number of
several people who had first hand knowledge.

I found the same story you all told me.
And they confirmed what you all said.
BUT ! They were all out of standard rotts
that were purchased. The one lady finally
told me after 20 minutes of complaining
that her rott was $2500.00 and 175 lbs !

I told her she was out of her mind ! That
was obviously a breed mishap. What are people
thinking when they buy a pup like that on
purpose ! They are just as much to blame
as Kimbertal in my opinion.

I think that the hip problems have got to
be part related to the fact that the rott
skeleton was not meant to hold 175 lbs.
That's just insane...

And as far as my pups litters, they are
very healthy. I do not sell them as purebred
rotts. I hold the papers on them all.
Good loving home required, not a trophy home.

I also intend to investigate further via
phone and search for more facts on this
kennel. If I can get enough first hand
experiences documented then I can make
an educated opinion and perhaps even do
something about Kimbertal.

If I find enough facts I will call every
vet in the state and educate them so they
may in turn educate their clients.

Thats my real e-mail in my profile.
If you have a first hand experience use my
e-mail please ! With some help I can
do much more !

So, I'm not so bad afterall now am I :-)


[This message has been edited by Phoenix (edited December 11, 2000).]

[reif]

Here is what I have accomplished today.

#1. I called Elaine Skypowella who is
in the admin office of the Pennsylvania SPCA.
She said the report about kimbertal being
one of the top three for animal complaints
was actually written 5 years ago and based
on facts 5 years prior to that. So, that report is actually useless. But she did
tell me who to call if I want to know the
facts and bring Kimbertal to the attention
of someone who can make a difference.

Senator Greenleaf is a pup lover and
was primarily responsible for passing the
puppy "lemon laws" here in PA. Puppy Mills
do not like this man at all. What I am
going to do is speak with him and try to
open a case file regarding Kimbertal.
I don't know what that will require on my
part but I will go the extra mile.

I also have the phone number for the PA
Dept. of Agriculture. They will be getting
a call from me. If I can get one person to
listen to me then the battle is half won.

One thing though..
I am looking for the truth and facts.
If what I am being told is true
an address where complaints can be sent
and recorded will do that.

I hope I can rely on the support of people
here who own webpages. When I get the address
of the person who should be contacted
regarding this matter, post it please.

I would be willing to bet alot of complaints
are not registered because owners are out
of state or out of the country. With a little
cooperation that can be remedied.

I'm gonna switch to the main forum now.
I think the Moderator is getting mad at
me ...LOL.. and I have some questions
about training my puppy.

I'll start a new thread here when I have some
phone numbers and address's to share with
you all. Thanks :-)

[This message has been edited by Phoenix (edited December 11, 2000).]