How to tell when a breeder is lying or is of poor quality

[BostonRott]

Well I guess we have different definitions of "waiting list." I will not breed a litter unless I have homes waiting, and I've had to turn away people from each breeding that I've done. But that to me is not a waiting list.

A "waiting list" in my mind, is a list of people well above and beyond what one breeding could hope to supply. I.e. 20 people for one litter. I see no point to this, it comes across as "stringing people along," but there are breeders who seem to to think this is a point of esteem.

Now, if you have someone who is waiting for a pup out of specific bitch and is willing to wait for a long time, that's one thing....they know what they're in for. But taking deposits from far more people than there could possibly be puppies for is not kosher in my book.

When I get close to having a litter sold out (i.e. 6 homes for each sex), I let people know that most likely the litter is sold out, but if they wish to leave their app with me, that is fine.

[BostonRott]

Originally Posted by Ann Felske-Jackman

I don't often agree with Donna, but in this case, she's right on the money (pun intended ). Generalizations can often be misleading.

Ok, then I'll clarify further: two puppies in one transaction, to one home. How's that?

[RottieMom51503]

Ok, then I'll clarify further: two puppies in one transaction, to one home. How's that?

I agree anyone selling, giving, adopting two puppies or dogs reguaredless of breeds and sex is no good. It's nearly impossible to have both pups reach their full potential and any breeder of merit would care enough about her/ his litter to want thier puppies to be able to achieve all their potential.

I'm glad this is a sticky, very well written Gretchen!

[Ann Felske-Jackman]

Originally Posted by BostonRott

A "waiting list" in my mind, is a list of people well above and beyond what one breeding could hope to supply. I.e. 20 people for one litter. I see no point to this, it comes across as "stringing people along," but there are breeders who seem to to think this is a point of esteem.

I'm finding that lately, no matter how we try to tell people that there won't be pups available, people choose to wait. We don't take deposits, and we do refer them to other litters, but still end up with people waiting. I think you'll find that most breeders don't "string people along". In fact, the breeders that I know are very happy when someone is "off the list" regardless of whether it was them that gave the owner a puppy. We all just want to see people find the right dog. I think it's just harder for owners to find that right dog these days, so many will choose to wait for the breeder they think will produce it.

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by Ann Felske-Jackman

We all just want to see people find the right dog. I think it's just harder for owners to find that right dog these days, so many will choose to wait for the breeder they think will produce it.

This is what I've found so refreshing. Breeders willing to work together to make the perfect match. Sometimes, it just isn't in the stars or the program to supply a great owner with a puppy. So that willingness to refer that owner to another breeder for a puppy is worth its weight in gold.

I got Parker this way. I wasn't able to get the puppy I wanted. So I was referred (without my knowing at first) to another to another. The path went from Toronto to Ottawa to NY to Pennsylvania! All to get me, a first time Rottweiler owner, the right puppy.

I'm in the same situation now - where I know that I'll be getting another puppy in the next year or two (depending on how everything else is working out). Again, while one breeder may not have the puppy for me, the network will.

This will hopefully catch on with other breeders. Maybe this way we can keep our breed out of substandard homes. Yes, a breeder should be prepared to keep every puppy - but let's be honest here. If you have a litter of 11, you can't keep all of them. So if a 'good enough' home comes along, you'll probably let it go. Being a part of a network of breeders may give you the choice of homes so that 'good enough' isn't good enough anymore.

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by TrishB

This is what I've found so refreshing. Breeders willing to work together to make the perfect match. Sometimes, it just isn't in the stars or the program to supply a great owner with a puppy. So that willingness to refer that owner to another breeder for a puppy is worth its weight in gold.

I got Parker this way. I wasn't able to get the puppy I wanted. So I was referred (without my knowing at first) to another to another. The path went from Toronto to Ottawa to NY to Pennsylvania! All to get me, a first time Rottweiler owner, the right puppy.

I'm in the same situation now - where I know that I'll be getting another puppy in the next year or two (depending on how everything else is working out). Again, while one breeder may not have the puppy for me, the network will.

This will hopefully catch on with other breeders. Maybe this way we can keep our breed out of substandard homes. Yes, a breeder should be prepared to keep every puppy - but let's be honest here. If you have a litter of 11, you can't keep all of them. So if a 'good enough' home comes along, you'll probably let it go. Being a part of a network of breeders may give you the choice of homes so that 'good enough' isn't good enough anymore.

Referring puppy buyers is not an uncommon occurance at all. There are many breeders who breed only infrequently, or do not have what a puppy buyer needs or wants or fits at the time. It's a courtesy to both the buyer and fellow breeders.

[SuziHeaton]

I totally agree with Pooh--I bought Sadie for $1,000 at a pet store, and I can tell her breeding standards were weak at best. I do believe she is a pure-bred rottie, but that's about all I got for my money.

I'm determined to make my relationship with Sadie work, but please, research your breeders. While I love my dog, I can tell you I'll NEVER buy from a pet store again!

[ycon23]

I concur for I believe when you purchase from a pet store you could be making a horrible mistake! Only for the simple fact that most pet stores allow backyard breeders to sell their litters to them and then turn around and sell the litters to the buyers that thought since the puppy costs $2,000 ect.. that it must be a high quality puppy when in reality they probably could have bought that same pup for $400 from the backyard breeder but the backyard breeder only wants to get them sold and get the profit. This is only the tip of the iceberg for you are dealing with health issues, ect..for not being able to see what mom and dad look like...or what underlying health issues they had. This is just a generalization of what happens but I plead to those who perhaps considered purchasing from a BYB or Puppy Store..mall ect..to do your homework and it will definitely pay off for there are people out there that are not an enterprise that really love the breed and it will return 3x fold when you get your new puppy home and have established that relationship and sense of pride knowing you can always give your breeder a call and ask questions regarding your puppy's upbringing. :)

[TrishB]

Actually - most big chains of petstores do not use BYB's. They use puppy mills. BYB's can't produce enough puppies on demand like a puppy mill can. A pet store gets an order for a Cream Female Chow Chow puppy 8 weeks of age. A BYB cannot provide that. Puppy Mills can.

Puppy mills have bitches in wire cages, stacked on top of themselves - never socialized, walked, exercised, played with or loved. They just get bred time and time again. Whelping in these conditions - a life of torture until they cannot produce. They are then typically shot because they're no longer useful, and buried.

Every puppy that is purchased from a pet store or from a broker encourages that industry to continue producing puppies. Please don't condemn another bitch to this life. Go to a dog show or an obedience club or join a breed club / national club as well - meet a COE breeder and get the right puppy, the right way.

[rottcrazed]

I recently had a conversation with another one of the moms waiting to leave our kids at school about a couple, who also have kids at this school, who are her neighbors. They bought a 'purebred' Hungarian Viszla from a local pet store. Now, I train with a breeder of Viszlas and I know they are energetic, athletic, and not easy to find, so how the pet store got 2, I don't know.

Anyhow, long and short of it, this dog was 7 months old at that point, confined all day to either the yard (winter in Calgary has been mild, but not that mild), a crate or a bathroom with a babygate. He was not neutered, not socialized, not trained and apparently did not know his name. He had not been to the vet since he was 12 weeks old.

The mom took the dog from the family (they gave him up without a fuss more like) and she placed him in a rescue group where he would be fostered for a few months for training, neutering and then placed.

THAT is the kind of story you find when you buy from a petstore. They want the big money for the animal, and really don't care what happens beyond that.

So you just have to know that a 'breeder' who would just give up their pups to be sold to just anyone is not reputable to start with - they may talk a good game, but the proof, at least for me, is how a breeder backs their dogs up.

Kristi

[ycon23]

It is sad to see that it has gotten to that point where Pet Stores are using puppy mills to gain a profit. In the long run the breed suffers..for I remember living in Colorado and going to the local mall and always seeing at least one to two Rottweiler puppies for sale and the asking price was ridiculous for what they looked like conformation wise ect...But in America most americans are "impulsive buyers" we look to purchase what is in as opposed to doing the research and then it becomes a hot market for the puppy mills and BYOB's for they know when Christmas season comes around people will get their kid any type of dog they ask for without even knowing what they look like..and then think it is a good deal when going through the newspaper ad and you see Rottie pups for sale...Will be huge! or Pure Bred no papers, Dad is 150lbs and from there you can fill in the gaps...The novice buyer will say yes I can get me a rottweiler at a cheap price and it looks the part without realizing there could be genetic nerve problems, Hips, Elbows, Heart ect..And if these problems arise do you think the breeder they saw in the paper will refund their money or even give them the time or day They are already starting the next litter..trying to profit on people's ignorance...That is why you need to do the leg work and research the internet, use these forums as guides...gather contact information...don't fall for the glitz and glamour of web pages...A true reputable breeder will admit their faults as well as explain to you that they are trying to better the breed and if that means they quiz you and you don't pass then I think by them turning down the easy money and sending you towards a different breed that fits your character is a testimony in itself. I would bet money that the majority of people that you see selling dogs that are already past 3months old in the classifieds had first purchased their dog or pup on an "impulse buy" and now they aren't willing to stick it out and do their part in socializing, training or even loving their responsibility. I will try to put the information out there as much as possible to friends as well as family and it isn't until they pass it on ect..will someone over hear what is good practice and what is not..basically it all boils down to you get what you pay for. If you go to a street corner and purchase a watch you will have to hope the watch is real...or does it work..will it continue to work ect..well the same goes for if you purchased that watch at a store there is most likely a receipt with the stores return policy ect...People need to start getting informed for I was once someone who did it backwards..meaning I got a puppy first then wanted to research her background and bought books, then eventually found this site some 6 yrs ago and was in awe...Very informative Site...!

[lreynoso]

Wow there is so much useful info in this thread that I am having some information overload. As I have specified before. I am still trying to locate my 2nd rotweiler puppy and have been at it for about 6 months now. This website has been so useful to me.

The problem is I am second guessing myself everytime I think I find a reputable breeder, so I believe. I still have not found a reputable dealer or at least to my standard.

I feel that a puppy is a longtime investment and you should only try to find the best. Even though I have not championed a dog I am very confident that I will give a dog a excellent home and will try within my means anything I can to get the dog to it's fullest potential.

I might not already have the knowledge to aquire a dog with a champion backround and get him to that level but believe me I will try the best that I can to get him there.

A novice rotweiler fancier

[AstroZena]

I have something to say also on the giving a puppy away thought and the selling two puppies to one home...

I too have given a puppy away to the right person for the right reason with no sinister implications involved. Also, if a person wants to buy two puppies and the serious leg work has been done in regards to what the puppies are being used for, then why would this be a problem? I do believe there is reason for caution - but this is more to do with the fact that it is not practical to try and raise two puppies at one time as one puppy is very time consuming if trained properly and two is too much unless you are doing nothing else in your life which is improbable.

I also think you are being a bit too optimistic in your outline on health guarantees.

You said:
" A real health guarantee will not require you to return your puppy if it has a problem. A real health guarantee does not expire at some point in the life of the dog."

Any health guarantee provisions are two fold, to protect the buyer and to protect the seller from the often long of a list of ridiculous unspoken guarantees the buyer suddenly believes are implied when they inadvertantly do something to cause a pup to become unhealthy (ie: improper food quality or quantity, improper vetting after delivery, jumping up and down stairs,etc.) There are many other countless mistakes even the most well intentioned new owner might make which may cause irreparable damage to the pup and then they want to blame it on the breeding.

I for one will always take my pups back as opposed to leaving them in these conditions. A good breeder will recognize that in the real world you must protect yourself as well as the buyer and not all of these types of provisions are intended to "pull something over on the buyer" because your dogs are inferior. I definately stipulate certain things in my health guarantees to keep the buyer on task with vet appointments, feeding requirements, housing and if they cannot comply and the dog is in some way made to become unhealthy - I demand my dogs be returned to me for proper placement.

About the no expiration on a health guarantee, are you saying that even after they should have been tested at maturity for any defects that you are willing to take on responsibility for any and everything they may have done wrong in rearing the dog? Indefinately? Because this is what you are implying without spelling it out contractually. You are in essence allowing anyone who purchases a puppy of sound quality and lineage to be used in any manner they see fit and then when and if they come up with dysplasia or some other defect allowing them to blame it on you...

[BostonRott]

Originally Posted by AstroZena

I have something to say also on the giving a puppy away thought and the selling two puppies to one home...

Also, if a person wants to buy two puppies and the serious leg work has been done in regards to what the puppies are being used for, then why would this be a problem? I do believe there is reason for caution - but this is more to do with the fact that it is not practical to try and raise two puppies at one time as one puppy is very time consuming if trained properly and two is too much unless you are doing nothing else in your life which is improbable.

Well, you've pretty much answered your own question. It is well documented in studies that two puppies of equal potential put in one home will not come out equal. It's been discussed PLENTY of times on this forum, spend some time searching, you'll find the info.

Knowing that two puppies can't flourish in one household, a concerned breeder would not be placing two puppies in one household.

Obviously I know breeders who have given puppies away, but as a general rule, especially for all the masses searching on here, a breeder who sells you one puppy and gives you a second one (at the same time) IS NOT a reputable breeder (which is the whole point of this thread....helping people weed through the masses).

[AstroZena]

I understand what you are saying as well and do not wish to sound too abrasive - but my concern lies in the fact that perhaps we should not be so black and white on the verbage and try to guide people more than etch it in stone.

I DID NOT say sell one and give one away like it is a bake sale - I said sell two or give one away for the right reason. As in "out of the goodness of my heart" because it was the right thing to do. Also, it is not impossible for it to be in the best interest of two puppies going to the RIGHT HOME in the RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES to thrive and have it be the best place for them to be.

I guess I am most concerned at the unflappable attitude that there is only ONE right way and everyone else has the WRONG way..