How to tell when a breeder is lying or is of poor quality

[BostonRott]

I should clarify that: sell you one puppy and give you a second one.

[mferg]

Originally Posted by rutylr

I agree with the whole post ,except the give you a puppy.....It is more important that the puppy be in great homes (to me) then making the money from the sale.
I know alot of people in different breeds who also give people puppies.

Donna

I have to agree with this sentiment, but I think the context Gretchen was referring to (and she clarified it, also) was that in a new breeder/buyer relationship, the breeder should not give puppies away. If the breeder and buyer have a well established relationship and the breeder is very comfortable with the puppy owner, then the giving of puppies is not questionable (to me).

[dmoniz]

The only other thing I would add, and tell me if I'm wrong, a good breeder will be willing to take a pup back (in fact should be mandatory) at any time in it's life if for some reason you can no longer keep it or it ends up not being a good match for your family.

[Ilovemypuppy]

All of the above, but then, if possible, go visit the breeder's establishment. Lots of red flags there to watch for...including, but not limited to...cleanliness of the area where the dogs are kept, the reaction of the dogs to your visit, their manners or lack there of..indicating whether there has been any training in place and whether or not there is evidence of socialization and training efforts on the part of the breeder of the puppies before they go to their new homes.

There are lots more things one might look for as well..maybe others could chime in.

If you do go to the breeders' and you do see things that are not right, don't be naive in thinking you can fix some of the things that are not done in the early stages of the puppies' development.

[TR Young]

Very good post, Gretchen.
I appreciate all the information that well-versed owners and trainers are posting on this site. I have learned very much from all of you, and I simply must say, "Thank you". Tara thanks you, too!

[spidey]

Originally Posted by dmoniz

The only other thing I would add, and tell me if I'm wrong, a good breeder will be willing to take a pup back (in fact should be mandatory) at any time in it's life if for some reason you can no longer keep it or it ends up not being a good match for your family.

You're correct. They shouldn't just be willing, they should insist on it in writing in the contract.

[TrishB]

I'd also add this:

Be honest with yourself about YOURSELF. If you are a first time owner, or if you've never shown or trialed a dog.... WHY would a great breeder, give you pick of the litter, their BEST prospect? I've often heard people being convinced that the breeder is treating them so well - oh he's giving ME PICK!!

Be honest. Do you qualify to take the best puppy in that litter? You may love it, but any breeder worth their salt, would have an experienced home that has shown, trialed, trained, etc. in the past for their best prospect. If you're the best that they have - then you have to wonder WHY. WHY aren't there more experienced owners there before you in line for that same pup? Maybe they know something you don't? *think about it*

If a breeder isn't chomping at the bit to introduce you to their other puppy people, other experiences, to invite you to shows and trials BEFORE YOU GET A PUPPY - then again, you have to ask WHY???

Also, if there's no waiting list - WHY NOT?!!? If there's no waiting list and you can have the puppy today - WHY?!?! Why isn't there a whole group of people ahead of you, waiting for the same pups? I know of some breeders where people have been waiting for pups for YEARS!!

So be honest with what you can offer to a breeder, their kennel, and opportunities for one of their pups.

I've been very lucky in that I was referred via another breeder to a network of people. I was referred to a lovely breeder and I've been BLESSED to have had a dog from her. I've proven myself, in which case has allowed me to learn more, be taught more and to be lead by some fabulous breeders. I still have a lot to learn, but I have a wonderful network of knowledgable doggy people.

There's an old saying: If it's too good to be true, it probably is.

No truer words have ever been said.

[BostonRott]

A waiting list does not neccessarily qualify or disqualify a breeder from being an ethical one. Some people breed infrequently and don't string along potential homes. Now, if the whole litter is completely available, that's definitely a red flag. But not having a "years' long" waiting list means very little in regards to a breeder's ethics.

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by BostonRott

A waiting list does not neccessarily qualify or disqualify a breeder from being an ethical one. Some people breed infrequently and don't string along potential homes. Now, if the whole litter is completely available, that's definitely a red flag. But not having a "years' long" waiting list means very little in regards to a breeder's ethics.

Oh - I didn't intend it as a qualifyer - I meant it as - be sure that you ask WHY. There may be a very valid reason. But it serves to ask and be aware of it.

[spidey]

I have to agree with Gretchen. Many/most of the ethical breeders I know breed specifically because they want a dog for themselves, for their own breeding program, and since they are all always prepared to keep an entire litter for as long as they have to until the appropriate home is found (otherwise they don't breed until they ARE in that position), it's not unusual for them to have puppies in a litter which are available (sometimes the people on the waiting list just aren't suitable for a given litter, sometimes there is no waiting list at all). Some breeders hold off on breeding until they have a waiting list, but far from all, and I would never assume that the presence or absence of a waiting list says anything at all about a breeder's ethics or quality.

A breeder who breeds specifically FOR a waiting list would raise red flags for me, far more than a breeder who breeds with no waiting list at all. I have certainly said to breeders recently that I would like to know if they ever plan to make a certain cross, since I have some very specific ideas about what I want in my next dog, but that doesn't mean I'm on a waiting list, it means I might be interested in a puppy from that cross should they ever decide to make it, and should the right puppy for me appear in the litter.

[Docter Jekyll]

Originally Posted by fbkeays

If the bitch had been bred before and the puppies are old enough to be OFA'd and only a small percentage are in the OFA database- Ask WHY!

I understand what you're saying and agree, but only to a certain degree.

The majority of reputable breeders do want to know the results, so they have a better understanding of what is in their lines.

But how can any breeder make each and every puppy buyer OFA there dogs, especially when they go to pet homes? Most times people never even contact their breeder again, until they have a problem. I've seen many reputable breeders plead for years with the owners just to have simple hip x-rays done, let alone send them into OFA.

Breeders can't seem to really force this issue, since after-all, the owner does have rights when purchasing a dog. Even if the breeders require this in their contracts... Do they really press this issue in court even if the dog is otherwise in a good home?

Not to get into another issue that the owners are bad owners because they don't do simple x-rays... we know there are still many people that don't understand the health risks involved. I'm just trying too say that many people simply don't see the need to x-ray and it tends to hurt breeders reputation along with them, not knowing what is hiding in those lines. What can we really do, as breeders, to help this problem? Maybe another thread could be started on this topic?

Furthermore, just because a sibling from a litter doesn't show up in the online databases, it doesn't mean it was actually x-rayed, that it didn't pass a test, and that it wasn't entered into OFA... which people call hiding evidence of health problems. There are gaps with health tests in the online databases that lead people into believing this to be true, but it isn't always the actual case. I've seen this with certain dogs that did have health clearance numbers, but weren't recorded properly or actually in the database... It does happen! However, they still are very useful tools if used in combinations with actual written documents.

On another note, I do know that reputable breeders do give puppies to other known breeders, or co-own together, to help each other out in the breed and know full well that the puppies are in great homes. Like others said, the money isn't as important! However, giving away a free pet in other circumstances makes you wonder why.

[BabyBrownz]

Hi all,

New here and am wondering why a breeder will only have a health guarantee with a show/breed dog over the pet quality?

Seller will not guarantee hips on pups sold as pet only because other environmental conditions have been known to cause CHD ie. jumping, intense exercise before 12 to 18 months

I'm also wondering what the usual price is for a Rottweiler pup in Canada is.

thanks,
Lynn

[BostonRott]

Originally Posted by BabyBrownz

Hi all,

New here and am wondering why a breeder will only have a health guarantee with a show/breed dog over the pet quality? I'm also wondering what the usual price is for a Rottweiler pup in Canada is.

thanks,
Lynn

Because the breeder is full of it.

[Ann Felske-Jackman]

Originally Posted by BostonRott

I should clarify that: sell you one puppy and give you a second one.

I don't often agree with Donna, but in this case, she's right on the money (pun intended ). Generalizations can often be misleading.

Below is a list of puppies that I gave to their owners (first time):

Esmonds Cause for Pause UDTX, SchHIII, FH2, AD, IPOIII, BH, TT, CGC, VX
V-1 Am/Can Ch, UKC Ch/ATCh Esmonds Golden Opportunity NA, NAJ, OAP, OJP, Ag.N, O-NAC, S-NJC, O-TN.N, NGC, TG.N, TT, HIC, CGC
V-1 USRC Select Can Ch Esmonds Kaleidoscope of Quarks UD, Can CD, RN, NA, OAJ, NAP, NJP, SchHI, BST, BH, U-CD, U-AGII, TT, CGC
BOSS Select 1 Am/Can CH CT Esmonds Make Mine a Double Am/Can CD, RA, Can TD, CGC
And recently, my beloved Bob

Why would a breeder do this? Because sometimes a puppy is so very special that its perfect match is worth far more than any amount of money. Because, as evidenced by the accomplishments of these dogs and the relationships we have with each owner, people do actually appreciate it. And because a good breeder once set a wonderful example for me, giving me a puppy named Gambol who has been my everything for the past ten years.

Pretty good generalizations on the remainder of the post though Gretchen! There is a lot there that first time owners can learn from.

[Ann Felske-Jackman]

I have to admit that I agree with Trish here also. Good breeders will receive enough inquiries/referrals that even if they have more puppies than expected, or an inbalance of one sex etc., the pups will be spoken for. I would be very wary of a breeder who planned a litter without having their homes lined up. Further, we as stud dog owners will not accept a bitch unless the breeder has potential homes fully interviewed and waiting. 8-9 weeks is not enough time to get to know a person well enough to be comfortable entrusting them with a puppy unless they come HIGHLY referred from a VERY trusted source. That fact that breeders bring puppies into this world and later try to locate homes is why there are so many poorly bred dogs in rescue, and so many well bred dogs who will never reach their full potential.