Size Hereditary?

[rottweiler_fancier]

Hi; I'd like to know what happens when an Oversided bitch (just about a tenth of an inch overstandard) breeds to a perfect size male and the puppies are all within standard. 1) Would it be responsible to breed this bitch again to another good size male? 2) Will her puppies become carriers for oversized puppies and inturn produce oversized, out of standard offspring? 3) Should she in addition to all her puppies be fixed?

The bitch I'm referring to is not-a-rottie, but this forum has been ten times more helpful to me than any other and I hope nobody minds my brief non-rott post.

Anyways - she did produce several top show quality puppies (one of the pick males recently took some good placements from a recent Dog Show), puppies with good hunting instinct, and she herself comes from a big line. Her breeder and co-owner likes stockier dogs for hunting purposes and she has some nice, sturdy dogs that she shows, and this bitch was shown for awhile until she grew oversized. The litter was not planned but she bred to a quality, hunting/show male who's taken several placements in shows and he himself has a good pedigree. The breeding between the two was actually planned for later when both had their titles. Anyways - I'm just inquiring because it seems that she produces some VERY nice puppies, with the exception she can't do well in shows. I know some kennels keep bitches for breeding if they just don't do well in shows. Anyways - can someone give some advice? The breeder is upset she went oversize when she's so nice and the owner is unsure what to do. You can send private e-mails to pets_101@mailcity.com.



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- Dana -
"All Rottweilers were created equal"

[FredAl]

I have to reply to this question in hopes that it will be read by rott breeders who are also considering breeding their oversized bitches.

1) Would it be responsible to breed this bitch again to another good size male?

No. Oversize is a disqualifying, hereditary fault and should not be bred or reproduced. A hereditary, disqualifying fault should never be compromised in a breeding program -- no ifs, ands, or buts in this area. This is how a lot of breeders destroyed an otherwise solid breeding program. No dog is so outstanding that he can be forgiven a single disqualifying fault. What would be compromised next -- a spooky or aggressive temperament?

The breed doesn't need that. If one checks the AKC statistics on registration for the breed, hundreds (if not thousands) of dogs are being whelped and registered, and one should be meticulous with their breeding stock.

The qualities that the breeder loves in that dog are also present in a lot of other dogs that have the correct size for the breed.

2) Will her puppies become carriers for oversized puppies and inturn produce oversized, out of standard offspring?

Chances are, the puppies WILL carry the oversize gene and may pass it on to their offspring. The disappointment that was experienced by the breeder will be experienced a hundredfold by the other breeders who will acquire that line.


3) Should she in addition to all her puppies be fixed?

Yes. To prevent that hereditary, disqualifying fault from multiplying, they should all be fixed.

[rottweiler_fancier]

Thankyou for the reply. I really wasn't sure how size is affected. Another question - how can you reduce the size dogs in a specific line? The breeder above I mentioned - breeding for large, sturdy hunting dogs has been getting pretty big with her stock - though she breeds responsibly. Their at the higher end of the standard and I guess a few go out of standard. If someone was to intermix with her line, would there be a way to continue getting smaller sized dogs of the same sturdy build?



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- Dana -
"All Rottweilers were created equal"

[FredAl]

Yes, this is being done by Beagle breeders who can work with two standard sizes -- under 13" and under 15". When they want to bring in substance to their 13", they breed them back to the 15".

When their 15" is starting to go over 15" (which is still acceptable in FCI -- standard calls for 13" - 16"), they bring in the 13" line.

[FredAl]

OOoops! You're right, Carol. I was busy posting about Ztp's that I got focused on the disqualifying faults in a Rottweiler Breed Suitability Test.

[rottweiler_fancier]

I'll have to double check the standards for the breed, though I believe it is a disqualification in that particular breed. Why isn't it a disqualification in Rottweilers? You'd think it would help eliminate the 200lb rotts or those built to be xtra large.



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- Dana -
"All Rottweilers were created equal"

[Carol Burke]

First of all, oversize is not a disqualification in Rottweilers, it is a serious fault. In some breeds it is a DQ and if it were in the breed your talking about I would not breed the bitch.

In my experience breeding Rotts, size does not seem to be very consistant. You can get large dogs from small parents and vice versa. However, that may not be true in other breeds.



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Carol
Darrlburg Rottweilers

[FredAl]

My thoughts exactly, Dana. Oversize should be a disqualifying fault in rotts. Oversized rotts tend to have more health and physical problems -- heart, lungs, bones, etc. They tend to live shorter lives because their hearts and lungs that remain the same size cannot support the size of the bodies.

[Judi W]

Of course size is heriditary. Is it dominant? I think not. Ethical breeders do not breed dogs that cannot be shown respectfully. Those who are breeding grossly oversized stock are not showing anyway and a disqualification would have no effect at all.

I truly doubt the existance of a 200 pound purebred Rottweiler. What I do not understand is the fuss about a dog at the top of the standard. I don't hear such complaining about one at the bottom in size. Proportion and correctness should be paramount otherwise we would simply select dogs by measuring them. No, we do not want the breed as a whole to go into giant status, however neither do we want to lose substance. The standard allows for a balance between the two and a wider gene pool.

PS. Good Grief! A tenth of an inch? I don't know anyone who can place a wicket in the precise spot each time to measure that closely.

[This message has been edited by Judi W (edited September 23, 2000).]

[rottweiler_fancier]

[quote]Originally posted by Judi W:
I truly doubt the existance of a 200 pound purebred Rottweiler.

I guess you missed the discussion on the person breeding 200-250lb Rotts. One of her males had serious eye problems needing corrective surgery (I can't remember the name of the condition but its where the eyelashes turn in). They were purebred and AKC registered.

As for the measurement I'm not sure exactly how oversized she was but I don't think it was more than an inch oversize.


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- Dana -
"All Rottweilers were created equal"

[This message has been edited by Phoenix (edited November 25, 2000).]