Germans breeding mild HD

[Jags]

I was told that the germans breed mild HD,If this is true why do we continue to bring these Rotts over and how can we ever get rid of HIP DYSPLASIA with this happening...Jags

[Orville Story]

In 1998 Gremany had 544 litters. 17 litters had Dams with hip rating of Fair the rest were Good or Excellent. Of these 17 Dams 4 were bred to Studs with the rating of Good the rest were bred to Studs with ratings of Excellent. No Studs were used with a rating of Fair or anything less.

[Nancy Estes]

I know the ADRK used to allow a dog/bitch with a +/- HD rating (borderline), or one with whatever the mild rating is, to be bred. As Orville stated, this isn't the case any longer. I believe they also used to certify hips at 1 years and now do them at 15 months. OFA is far from perfect but the European system is not as thorough I don't think. Ives Eulenspiegel was HD +/- and is know to be *bad for hips* but he was a very important sire in other respects. There is a difference, though, in *not throwing the baby out with the bathwater*, (informed, well though-out breeding with one partner having a certain fault or defect), and careless, willy-nilly breeding simply because both partners have titles or OFA certifications. This has always been something a lot of people in the US have had trouble understanding.

Nancy

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von Dorow Rottweilers
doggo1@apex2000.net

[Orville Story]

HD +/- is equivalent to Good. The dogs are tested at 18 months instead of 24. This is the rating the Germans use HD- or HD frei is the same as OFA Excellent, HD +/- is the same as OFA Good, HD + is the same a OFA fair, HD ++ is the same as OFA Mildly Displystic, HD +++ would be Severe. Most dogs that come from Europe when obtaining their OFA numbers reflect the very same rating. For Example my male Rotthunter Chicco was rated HD +/- at 18 months, then xrayed when he arrived here at 49 months and recieved a rating of Good, RO-56606G49M-T. This is a 4 year old dog that was IPO III that jumps and torques his body constantly. No system is perfect, but I don't believe that OFA is either inferrior or superior. The systems are only as good as the persons who are reading the xrays on that given day.

I do agree with Nancy if we focus entirely on the hips we may lose other qualities.

[Nancy Estes]

Those are the current ratings - were they the same when they x-rayed at a younger age 20+ years ago? (OFA used to certify at one year also, 20+ years ago or so.) The *advantage* to OFA (or what makes it a LITTLE bit more thorough) is that they have 3 readers instead of one. As to their requirements, etc., I think the jury is still very much out on that! (As vs. PennHip, etc.) I've had a dog show laxity on x-ray in one hip that OFA'd Good . . .

Nancy

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von Dorow Rottweilers
doggo1@apex2000.net

[German Vanegas]

A system that uses 3 X-rays from diffenrent angles to allow more infomation to be read and analyzed, I think that offers more objectivity and accuracy. That is the case of the PennHIP mehtod. As far as OFA ratings is concerned, there has been so many wrongful readings that one truly wonders what the actual status is, in any given case... Obviously, the Orthophedic Foundation Animal will not accept such sensible reasonings and scientific documented data... After all, there is money to be made, and OFA don't want to loose the tight-grip they have stablished in the dog breeding business.

[Nancy Estes]

But they're NON-PROFIT!! My question is - what are the salaries?? Would probably be a good place to work

On my question about ADRK hip ratings - Dagmar Hodinar's book *The Rottweiler* (copyright 1985) lists them as:

HD- no signs of HD, suitable for breeding
HD+/- minor changes (transition form)
HD+ slightly positive, suitable for breeding
HD++ medium, cannot be bred
HD+++ HD severe, cannot be bred

Nancy

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von Dorow Rottweilers
doggo1@apex2000.net




[This message has been edited by Nancy Estes (edited August 17, 1999).]

[German Vanegas]

Nancy,
Have you ever question where the money funding comes from? ... and the money to be made, comes from breeders relying on OFA certifications ...

[Orville Story]

The salaries are modest. Most are top professors are Arigculture Universities. One is at Auburn. The cost to get a OFA certified OFA opion is very modest and most of the cost goes to documentation. They do work for all animals cattle, sheep and whatever to help breeders. It would be best for a breeder to get both a Penn hip and an OFA reading. However, finding Vets that are certified to do a Penn Hip is not that easy.

Some hips can be on the verge of a rating and the quality of the xray itself can make the difference. I do feel confident that OFA can tell if the socket and ball are excellent in shape and fit. What they can't detect is if in the range of motion that fit remains constant. This Penn Hip can detect.

Nancy,

The difference between OFA excellent and good is the same minor changes. I have never understood why some Americans claimed that Germans bred bad hips until now. I will get some more infromation that will show what OFA rates as good hips, ADRK rates as minor changes, HD+/-. And that an OFA rating of Fair would be the same as slightly positive HD+. The hips are the same only the adjectives are misleading, OFA's. In some European Countrys it is a board of twelve that reads the x-rays. These ratings are established by the FCI.

[German Vanegas]

OFA may look almost charitable but it is not. They are recipient of substantial money donations for research and operate under a financial budget. I don't question their good intentions, but the individual reading and analysis of x-rays. I personally know of wrongfully diagnosed readings due to bad positioning of the dog under the x-ray machine!... In fact, OFA certifications have been proven wrong quite often, whether a case where a good rating was given when later review proved it was actually bad, or viceversa. Something that OFA don't like to hear around, but facts are facts!


Scientific studies from the University of Pennsilvanya and Cornell, directly comparing the OFA method and the PennHIP method, have shown that although the two methods are related, in each case the PennHIP method has proved superior. It is important to emphasize that the PennHIP method incorporates the standard OFA X-ray, PLUS two other X-rays designed to focus on critical information regarding hip laxity. Therefore, the PennHIP method interpretation is made after a review of MORE DIAGNOSTIC FACTORS that the ONE available to OFA radiologists. The validity of that information analysis has surpassed the standards of OFA and scientific acceptance. The PennHIP method has a higher diagnostic standard, in my humble opinion.

[Hackel]

A number of breeders have made the point to me that the reason they don't use PennHIP is because they have no definite poof that laxity has an effect on hip dysplasia. Can someone shed some more light on this and point me to where can find more documentation to the contrary? They have also stated that dogs face a very real threat of injury from the PennHIP method...any comments?

Thanks...

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Von Der Ehrenwache Kennels
http://www.rottweiler.cjb.net
***Working dogs are "bred" and rarely "made"***
ICQ Chatroom - &Rottweilers (#14767753)

[BigBear]

If a dog is x-rayed and sent away to OFA and it comes back mildly dysplastic....when you thought the x-rays looked deep and well rounded and your vet had the same opinion...
Can they be redone and sent in for another reading?? I have wondered this....

I would be curious in the outcome...

[Michele Baxter]

Big Bear,
Such is exactly the case with someone I know. New x-rays are being submitted. I will let you know what happens.

I completely agree with the above posters, as I have personal experience with OFA being inconsistent. It may be a good "guidline" but not an absolute final word. Now, we are able to compare with PENNhip if something is questionable.

[Baren]

A few years ago, the ADRK use to allow bitches with HD+ to breed. take a look at Aki von Peeler Hutte's pedigree. HD+/- bred to HD+!!!!! And he makes up an important bloodline today. He is the sire of Hero vom Hohegeise and is found in most working pedigrees.
Many dogs that have made a huge difference to the breed were HD+/-. Eg. Eves Noris Matcho Bea Santo Irk Iwan and many other without which, the breed would be years back...

[BigBear]

Michelle,
That would be nice if you would let me know..... I personally had a few questions regarding the consistancy of the x-rays. I have dogs that are rated excellent, good and fair...and on the fair rating I was really suprised to see it come back as that! It was a deep socket with a very good shaped head... I am no expert.... but it was very similar in the x-rays of my girl with the "good" rating.
I do have another question... do you know if they take age in to consideration when looking at and rating them?