When is line breeding acceptable?

[ecburt]

I'm looking at buying a female rottie..when questioning the breeder, 25 years experience, she mentioned the litter was line bred. Is it acceptable? Is the fact she has a experience make line breeding okay? Or basically is all line breeding poor breeding?

[Judi W]

It quite depends upon the virtues and faults of the dogs that are being line-bred on.

[spidey]

Any close breeding concentrates things, for good and bad. If a breeder does their homework and knows what they're doing, it can be a very good thing, if they don't do their homework, it can be a bad thing, as Judi says, it really depends on the dogs involved.

[Judi W]

Originally Posted by ecburt

I'm looking at buying a female rottie..when questioning the breeder, 25 years experience, she mentioned the litter was line bred. Is it acceptable? Is the fact she has a experience make line breeding okay? Or basically is all line breeding poor breeding?

Experience as in successful breedings, or experience as in years. I am acquainted with people who have been breeding for 25 years or more but have still never produced anything. How much expression a trait (good or bad) gets depends upon many factors, not just that dogs are related. Is the trait expressed and dominant within the majority of the related dogs. How close are the relates. What are the traits that are hoped to be firmed up in this breeding?

If it is a breeder that has a good record for producing healthy in body and character, then you should be in good shape, line breeding or not.

[ecburt]

The breeder is a member of a breed club in Rochester, NY ...including COE and the breeding pair have been checked for elbows, hips and eyes. So, I feel comfortable..
I'm looking for good health, but also great temperment..Thanks for your opinion.

[rottcrazed]

Make sure that the parents' hearts are cleared through OFA as well; SAS is a big killer in Rottweilers and reputable breeders clear their dogs' hearts as well as eyes, elbows and hips.

Linebreeding, as said above, brings out the bad and the good from the parents' lines when combined together, so ask the breeder why she is doing this particular line breeding; what she likes about the lines, what she doesn't like, what can she tell you about the dogs that the litter is being linebred on? Check health clearances farther back in the pedigree too, go onto the OFA site and plug in some names and see what you find.

My only breeding thus far has been an uncle/niece linebreeding (who we now refer to fondly as Jewel's Uncle/Husband ). The puppies are 6 months old this weekend and obviously too young to see any health issues apart from their regular vet visits that have all gone well, but thus far they are turning out as expected in temperament and drive. I researched the lines, I know the breeder of the sire personally, so I was able to access a lot of her info before the breeding was done.

Linebreeding is very common and wdiely used. Outcrosses, I have been told and have done some research into it, are the breedings where you may see strange things crop up, then again, you may not as the dogs are competely unrelated and you just never know what you may get.

Inbreeding is what I, personally, would stay away from. Mother to son, father to daugher, brother to sister; there is too much risk there for me to want to do this. I know some breeders do it, but they a lot of experience and have a very particular reason for doing it.

Kristi

[Ravenscrest]

Ask to see records/ photos of the companion dogs/ show dogs that this breeder has produced. ask for references. i.e. from those who have owned her puppies previously- particularly if anything went seriously wrong re: health. Ask what health problems there have ever been in her litters. How many has she produced?.

[Tierarztin]

Originally Posted by ecburt

the breeding pair have been checked for elbows, hips and eyes.

HEARTS!

sorry to use caps, but *please* **please** make sure that both have been cleared by a cardiologist, preferably with an echo, especially in a linebreeding or inbreeding situation

Sub Aortic Stenosis (SAS) is killing far too many of our breed and although some people feel it is okay to breed a "clear" dog or bitch who has produced an SAS puppy as long as they change breeding partners, i would remove any dog that produces a pup with SAS from the breeding pool... we know this disease is inherited but we do not know the mode of transmission of this trait... is it dominant? recessive? one gene? polygenic?, ???... the mode of transmission found in newfie breeding studies suggests an autosomal dominant gene trait with variable expression or penetrance, with the variability probably due to modifying gene factors, whereas others (goldens) feel that SAS is a polygenic condition... furthermore, we cannot absolutely rule out the condition in a live dog unless we submit the dog to cardiac catheterisation (which is why i put "clear" in quotes previously)... SAS is one bad mother of a disorder!

most importantly, in a question re: linebreeding, it will be far more likely to come to the fore if silently carried *or* if one or both of the sire/dam are subclinical in a close breeding VS an outcross...

so *please* make sure that the hearts have been checked properly

cathy
(who lost most of an entire litter to SAS back in the day and knows of what she speaks... it's heartbreaking! )

Dr Cathy Priddle/Tierarztin/Daisy Hill
"TEST AND TELL"
Omnia vincit amor et nos cedamus amori
"Der Mensch tracht, und Gott lacht."

[WendiS]

What's the difference between line breeding and inbreeding? & if there isn't a difference then how can line breeding be good? I've seen what can happen when cousins marry & have children...I tell ya, I wouldn't want a one of those kids as a pet. What factors would make it different in animals than it is in people?
Just curious,
Wendi

[spidey]

What's the difference between line breeding and inbreeding? & if there isn't a difference then how can line breeding be good? I've seen what can happen when cousins marry & have children...I tell ya, I wouldn't want a one of those kids as a pet. What factors would make it different in animals than it is in people?

Some people use the terms to mean different things (inbreeding is parent-offspring, sibling-sibling/linebreeding is farther out), but there is no generally agreed-upon definition of the difference, and it's all technically inbreeding. As to your comment about cousins marrying, that's actually completely unsupported by fact - the risk factors for doubling up on recessive traits increase VERY slightly with crosses as far out as cousins (yes, there is math - it's called the "coefficient of inbreeding"), but so slightly as to be to all intents and purposes meaningless, which is why it's not illegal for human cousins to marry in most places. There is another increase with much closer crosses (parents-offspring, etc.), but even then, it's still very small. The "inbred stereotype" of low-intelligence and other negative traits is just nonsense.

Inbreeding doesn't create problems which aren't already present, it simply increases the chances that the problems will be exhibited. But it also increases the chances that GOOD traits will be passed on.

[WendiS]

As to your comment about cousins marrying, that's actually completely unsupported by fact - the risk factors for doubling up on recessive traits increase VERY slightly with crosses as far out as cousins (yes, there is math - it's called the "coefficient of inbreeding"), but so slightly as to be to all intents and purposes meaningless, which is why it's not illegal for human cousins to marry in most placesI've worked closely with 3 adult children of a family that negate your theory, but as to taking the time to answer my question thanks...I think that may sound snippy and it's not intended that way. I do appreciate the clarification of inbreeding/linebreeding.
The breeder we got Riley from talked about researching the studs she used to avoid inbreeding. However, Riley's sire's website mentions linebreeding so I was really confused.

[spidey]

Originally Posted by WendiS

I've worked closely with 3 adult children of a family that negate your theory, but as to taking the time to answer my question thanks...I think that may sound snippy and it's not intended that way. I do appreciate the clarification of inbreeding/linebreeding.

Sorry, but it's not my theory , it's fact (see here for additional information, to quote: "The risk that those marrying a relative are more likely to have offspring with birth defects or a disabling condition is nearly always exaggerated and perceived as being higher than it actually is.

All parents who are unrelated carry a risk of between 3 and 4% (3 to 4 out of every 100 births) of having a child with a birth defect or disability.

Where parents are first cousins and there is no family history of a specific condition, or where there is no other history of parents being related in previous generations, the risk is approximately double that for unrelated parents. So the total risk of having a child with a genetic condition where parents are first cousins is around 5-6%. Looked at another way, there is approximately a 95% chance of having an unaffected baby." - note that even doubling the risk results in a very tiny overall risk). The fact that you have come into contact with three "badly bred" (to use a dog term) individuals doesn't intrinsically mean that they got that way because of close familial ties, if you mix bad genes with bad genes, you get bad genes. There is also the issue of upbringing and maternal care during pregnancy. But this is another discussion.

[Alison]

cathy this year even Tho all my dogs have bin theroly examend bye my vet for harts As soon as a clinic is around my area that is exacly what I am going to do get my harts cert bye a cartioligist I completly agree with you
I have a person that is geting a puppie out of the litter i have on the ground wright naw that has a dog from another breeder that there literaly wating to dye because his hart is so bad when they told me the story My self and my wife was in tears about what they have gone throw and are going throw just wating for this dog to dye, That is somthing i would not wish on any one thats why I will be cert my harts for people like them
I am a ferm belever in line breeding some would even call what i do inbreeding this is something that should be done bye a person that has expereance and nolege about there dogs and there dogs back ground My thoughts on this is if you have vary good helthy stock and only use the dogs that are clear of every helth problam you can even inprove the helth on your future dogs bye locking in the strenths that are in those dogs
Phil Vas
Vasfor Rottweilers

Originally Posted by Tierarztin

HEARTS!

sorry to use caps, but *please* **please** make sure that both have been cleared by a cardiologist, preferably with an echo, especially in a linebreeding or inbreeding situation

Sub Aortic Stenosis (SAS) is killing far too many of our breed and although some people feel it is okay to breed a "clear" dog or bitch who has produced an SAS puppy as long as they change breeding partners, i would remove any dog that produces a pup with SAS from the breeding pool... we know this disease is inherited but we do not know the mode of transmission of this trait... is it dominant? recessive? one gene? polygenic?, ???... the mode of transmission found in newfie breeding studies suggests an autosomal dominant gene trait with variable expression or penetrance, with the variability probably due to modifying gene factors, whereas others (goldens) feel that SAS is a polygenic condition... furthermore, we cannot absolutely rule out the condition in a live dog unless we submit the dog to cardiac catheterisation (which is why i put "clear" in quotes previously)... SAS is one bad mother of a disorder!

most importantly, in a question re: linebreeding, it will be far more likely to come to the fore if silently carried *or* if one or both of the sire/dam are subclinical in a close breeding VS an outcross...

so *please* make sure that the hearts have been checked properly

cathy
(who lost most of an entire litter to SAS back in the day and knows of what she speaks... it's heartbreaking! )

Dr Cathy Priddle/Tierarztin/Daisy Hill
"TEST AND TELL"
Omnia vincit amor et nos cedamus amori
"Der Mensch tracht, und Gott lacht."

[Alison]

.


My foundation dogs came from half brother to half sister From the Briere kennals and also if you have any dog that has briere in there there is some form of tight line breeding in there because thats how they breed . also I have kids out of them that are line breed some are half brother to half sister agen and the helth record on those dogs are exalent from what I Have and no I think if you line breed wright even tight you can possably lock the good helth in your breeding program I have seen that with my own eyes
Phil Vas
Vasfor Rottweilers

Inbreeding is what I, personally, would stay away from. Mother to son, father to daugher, brother to sister; there is too much risk there for me to want to do this. I know some breeders do it, but they a lot of experience and have a very particular reason for doing it.

Kristi[/b][/quote]