Elbow dysplasia

[rockzilla]

Apparently, around 41% of Rottweilers tested have Elbow dysplasia.

http://www.offa.org/stats.html


There are several possible causes:

- Heredity (occurs in family lines -- buy puppies with certified parents).

- Trauma caused (high biomechanical stress such as rough-play, tug-of-war, etc.). Living on Hard surfaces (such as concrete, metal, wood, etc. etc.).

- Lack of sufficient blood supply to the joint cartilage. The specific cause of this marginal blood supply is not currently fully understood.


More information:
http://www.offa.org/elbowgrade.html


I'm hoping that Rotty owners will take note and breed & buy accordingly (Elbow & Hip dysplasia cleared parents when breeding).

Maybe elbow dysplasia can be lowered from 41% one day...?



Basically, if you have a puppy, you may want to consider holding off on any rough-play, jumping games, tug-of-war, etc. until they are 14 months old or so old (just an opinion since stress may cause bad joints).

Even after 18 months, you may still want to be very careful when playing.

Also, you may want to consider housing your pup on something other than a hard concrete, wood, or metal cage floor. Of course, I'd only buy from parents that are certified elbow and hip dysplasia clear (both parents).

[Rottlva]

Rockzilla, although I appreciate and recognize what you are saying, have you tired to find breeders with clear elbows? Yes, there are a few breeding pairs with clear elbows, but look further back. You also need to consider the grade of ED, and if there is just DJD or something more serious such as FCP or OCD.

If a clear ED breeding is important to you, go for it. The likelyhood of your pup getting it certianly decreases. But keep in mind that elbows are only one small part of what goes into determining weather or not a breeding should take place. Consider all the factors, and make a decision from that.

[rockzilla]

Originally Posted by Rottlva

Rockzilla, although I appreciate and recognize what you are saying, have you tired to find breeders with clear elbows? Yes, there are a few breeding pairs with clear elbows, but look further back. You also need to consider the grade of ED, and if there is just DJD or something more serious such as FCP or OCD.

If a clear ED breeding is important to you, go for it. The likelyhood of your pup getting it certianly decreases. But keep in mind that elbows are only one small part of what goes into determining weather or not a breeding should take place. Consider all the factors, and make a decision from that.

I guess since the elbow carries a substantial amount of body's weight and since Rottweilers are around 41% with ED, I'm hoping that breeders and buyers will take it under consideration at some point soon.

[fbkeays]

That 41% includes DJD. DJD is not a clear "diagnosis". I had a bitch from clear parents that OFA said was DJD1. She would become lame after moderate exercise. I had her re-x-rayed six months later and submitted to GDC and they rated her as grade 2 and actually stated what was wrong with her joints- incongruent surfaces. Just looking at her x-rays made you feel sick.
I have a male that was also rated with DJD1. He is worked hard and has not become lame. He does herding weekly and is never lame. Herding is one of the worst things you can do to a dog with bad elbows. He also has a big chest so he is "front loaded".
I know why he has DJD1 elbows. He has matching, tiny bone spurs OUTSIDE of the elbow joint. His elbow joints are clean and clear. The bone spurs(bumps really) do not interfer with his joint or his movement. But the presence of the bone spurs (btw they have not increased in size with time) near the joint is not the picture of "normal" elbows.
I have hardwood floors. I tug with my dogs and I allow my dogs to play tug with each other. I let them run up and down stairs. I let them jump over the furnature (like I COULD stop them????) and race around. Obedience classes are held on concrete. I do everything that is "bad" for puppies and dogs. I figure they are dogs and should do dog stuff.

[Judi W]

while it might be possible to mask a genetic predisposition towards joint disease, if looking at the long term consequences, I would prefer to expose than mask.

[rutylr]

I am on the OFA site everyday(along with the AKC and Pawvillage)
DJD does seem to run rampant in some lines more then others.I have heard say that we need these dogs in our gene pool because it is so small.No other breed that I am doing research uses DJD pos.dogs in their breeding pool and theirs are smaller then ours.
We have dogs coming from other countries that are clear all the time.Our gene pool is not that small.
Whould you breed two dogs that Have mild HD together because their parents did not have HD?
I think not so why use the dogs with DJD?If you do not think that OFA can read elbows right then why have them x-rayed and submitted?
The only reason I see to breed to DJD pos dogs is because these dogs are producing what is winning and people want a part of that.
No one knows what this will do to the breed in the long run.We could end up with an even smaller gene pool because the lines will be full of DJD.
Donna

[Docter Jekyll]

First and foremost, I'm a big health nut when it comes to my dogs and our breed. However, certain issues also need to always be understood. After all, nature plays dirty tricks on all of us, including us humans!

One has to understand that not all breeders, even this day and age, test for elbows or for that matter, each of the "Big four." You can go on to say that patellas also need to be checked, as some breeders do, but most don't.

In Germany and other countries you could cry about them not testing for hearts, eyes, and thyroid. And it seems only recently they too caught onto elbows... but still breed to dogs with EL++. It is, after-all, a work in progress for us all.

As one pointed out, not many pedigrees/lines have all health clearances as of yet, let alone passing elbows. Breeding isn't exact science and if only a handful of dogs that cleared everything were used, the gene pool would actually have other problems. Who's to say that these few dogs would be a perfect match for each other? What if one had a horrible temperament problem? What if it had another type of health problem that isn't tested for? You wouldn't breed that dog even if it cleared all tests. Just because a dog has a title and all clearances doesn't make them breedable or available to breed to. Honestly, it doesn't always work like clock work when you breed a litter.... you could place two parents both CHIC rated and have 3 out of 5 become longhaired and the other two not clear hips. You have to know the bloodlines, what they produce, and what are all the details that make up the dog/pairing.

I could sit here all day and criticize breeders about why they don't do so and so, but when it boils down to actually doing the deed, it really isn't that easy to be in their shoes. Genetics are not always black and white. Every breed has problems and I have seen great improvement over the short years I've been in our breed. Most of the breeders are very passionate about what they do, trying to make a difference, trying to create that perfect dog, but they just don't exist and never will! We can only try to do our best and go from there......

Believe it or not, it will still take some time for our breed to weed out more elbow problems, just as it did with hips. One way of helping might be to have more positions of the elbow x-rayed because one picture just doesn't seem to cut it with elbows. I don't know the exact time when everyone decided to all of sudden x-ray elbows, but even 10 years ago when I purchased one of my dogs, it wasn't commonplace for breeders yet. And it still wasn't when I had him x-rayed for his hips. We can only hope that it catches on with more people. I do love seeing CHIC#'s in our breed!

[Judi W]

Genetic diversity is indeed a complex issue.

This issue is not the surprises, but "known" issues that effect quality of life.

Would you not agree that if you have a dog that is effected that you would seek out a clear dog for breeding partner? Every effort should be made to dilute health issues and every effort should be made to avoid solidifying them into the population. Some of the breeds with very limited populations to select from had made some very hard choices. The Rottweiler population is not so limited that selection of breeding partners is limited to effected to effected.

[Docter Jekyll]

Originally Posted by Judi W

Genetic diversity is indeed a complex issue.

Would you not agree that if you have a dog that is effected that you would seek out a clear dog for breeding partner?

I agree genetics is very complex, confusing, and usually heartbreaking. I was trying to give some examples of what can happen in real life and it may have seemed like I was all for breeding unhealthy dogs, but I'm not. Like I've said before, you have a way with words a heck of a great deal better then me! But what I am trying to say is that even the best of the best bloodlines still produce health problems and to this day there is no perfect dog. You may be able to agree that there are only a handful of really top-notch dogs out there in any breed, but there is still something there that doesn’t make them a perfect match for every line, and even still may be awful producers. There are also differences of how one perceives breeding stock: In one mind of a breeder a dog could be top-notch, and to another it could be a mutt!

As we all know, health problems happen because we are dealing with nature. I don't like it, and neither do other breeders that are totally passionate about the breed, but it does happen. All of us have had to deal with some form of ailment in our dogs. If anyone could wave a magic wand and make all the problems in the world go away, they would want to do it... but it isn't realistic. We do our best, hope for the best, and go from there. Usually, it is a slow progress. However, if we are progressing up hill, not down, and learn from our mistakes, that is the ultimate key to betterment! Like you said - sharing what we know... would help.

Yes, I agree that I would want to go to a clear partner. I didn't say what I would actually do as a breeder. Since I am an owner of a couple Rottweiler health lists, I can actually say I'm very passionate about health issues. I've actually been known to be way overboard on the topic. However, I am also realistic about what can happen to a living creature.

Just so people can get an idea for what I'm trying to say. I recently did get into a huge heated debate with a good friend about what I decided to do with a litter I was planning in the future. The heated topic was on health issues and what I felt is important. People don't always see eye to eye, especially when it comes to breeding. Needless to say, I want to breed my CHIC rated dog with another CHIC rated dog. But, there is a heck of a lot more to look at - including other health issues that dogs carry that are not tested for, and people don't know about them either. They can crop up way after a breeding took place. Along with that comes other issues like temperament, etc.

I'm just trying to explain there has to be some kind of balance with everything we do dealing with dogs - or in our lives, for that matter. I can tell stories all day long about so-and-so did this breeding and it had this problem and that, but I will not go there because I'm not them! They made that decision on their own and nobody twisted their arms. However, I can also comment on those same dogs out of those litters that had some very nice qualities that really should be carried on to the next generation, and I'm not talking about show wins. I also know there are many dogs that go unnoticed from these same litters because they do get placed in pet homes that don't register, don't x-ray, don't.... All of us don't see every single dog out of every single litter produced!

What I'm trying to say is that the breeders of any litter, or anyone for that matter, cannot tell the future of what can happen. If they have the best intentions at that time to try and better the breed, then this IS all any one can really ask of them. This all may sound confusing to those reading this..... but in my mind I know what I'm trying to say, but always have a hard time explaining it. That's all I'm trying to share..... sorry that it's confusing.

[frontierrots]

Just to clarify

A CHIC number (they don't rate) means that the Rottweiler (in this case) has been tested and the results submitted to OFA or CERF.

It DOES NOT mean the dog passed. It just means it was tested.

As just one example among many, my male is OFA good, OFA cardiac clear, CERF'd and elbos xrayed- he's clear in the right and DJD 1 in the left (xrayed at 6+ years). So he got a CHIC number

[Docter Jekyll]

Thank you for clarifying.

Let me rephrase it: My dog is tested and cleared by OFA/CERF for hips, elbows, eyes, and heart and has received a CHIC#. Also, the sire to any future planned litter of mine, would have a CHIC# resulting from tested and cleared hips, elbows, eyes, and heart with OFA/CERF. That is what I meant when I said the word: "Rated" and should have used the word: "Clear". I was merely trying to take a short-cut with my posting since most people that care anything about their breeding programs study canine health issues.

I do make many mistakes with my wording. If anyone has felt I misled them with wrong information, in any way, by my chosen words, I do apologize! It wasn't intentional.

[TrishB]

You also have to realize that suddenly cutting off 41% of our gene pool is not possible. Instead, you must make educated decisions.

I for one know of a phenominal dog with a Gr. 1 elbow. That dog is also SchHIII and has never been lame. I would use this dog in a breeding to another clear dog. I believe that this breeding would be justified.

In this very large breeding study (primarily Labrador Retrievers, Golden Retrievers, Rottweilers, and German Shepherd Dogs), the rate of ED more than doubled when one parent was affected, and more than tripled when both parents were affected. In any breed where the overall percentage of affected dogs is already lower than the percentage that can be expected when a dog affected with ED is bred to a normal dog (26.1% - 31.3%), one would find few circumstances in which progress can be made by breeding a dog affected with ED.

[rockzilla]

Originally Posted by TrishB

You also have to realize that suddenly cutting off 41% of our gene pool is not possible. Instead, you must make educated decisions.

I for one know of a phenominal dog with a Gr. 1 elbow. That dog is also SchHIII and has never been lame. I would use this dog in a breeding to another clear dog. I believe that this breeding would be justified.

I agree.

My hope is that breeders and buyers will give elbow dysplasia much more attention moving forward by breeding and buying accordingly (as was done with hip dysplasia).

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by rockzilla

I agree.

My hope is that breeders and buyers will give elbow dysplasia much more attention moving forward by breeding and buying accordingly (as was done with hip dysplasia).

Absolutely. I think it has everything to do with FULL Disclosure and educated decisions. The percentage should then come down accordingly.

[GenHannibal]

At this time, my 2 yr. old male is being x-rayed for OFA & to further research the exact reason for his intermittent limping. Preliminary exam is that he may have "elbow displaysia" and perhaps a broken bone chip that is also causing the issue. Had a discussion with the veterinarian, a specialist in the orthopedic arena, as to why this problem is occuring at such a high rate in Rottweilers. Although it is difficult to narrow down the causes, it was stated that among the several causes: weight can have a great impact during their growth stages, genetics, and/or too much exercise & rough play. Out of the 13 rotties I've owned, this is my first one that has an issue with elbows. At the present time, I await for the final word from the vet, even though he has already said there was definitely a problem in one of the elbows. We'll see what the final prognosis is.

While I agree genetics plays a large factor, I have to also say that too many owners put too much stress on the pups as they grow by allowing them to be "stocky". What some owners think is stocky is plain old FAT!!! Not good for the bones at all.