Elbow dysplasia

[Alison]

Originally Posted by TrishB

Germany does allow +/- to be bred. And a Grade 1 elbow does not always mean crippling or pain. Many Grade 1 (DJD as Diane clearly stated) dogs go through their lives with no further discomfort than clear dogs. There needs to be a little bit of perspective here.

And no - I would not rebreed a bitch that had produced multiple puppies with DQ faults OR multiple ED. Neither is acceptable.

so im confuzed here naw first are you stating that both dogs with ed, a helth problam ? and DQ falts (white markings)oversized,undersized and so on are to be considerd in the same catagory ?
Also let me ask you one thing how mutch experance do you have in breeding ? because i would state as will many breeders that i no in many difrent breeds and ours that many of the top dogs in the world have prouduced dogs with some form of dq falt at one time or another in there lives These things should not be put in the same catigory ?
Im sorry but i think its nuts to be comparing cosmetic falts to helth ?

and im prity shere ed +- is not the equivalent to grade 1 its ed+ from what i was told also in germany the breed wardens monetor dogs that have ed or border line problams some dogs are not permited to be breed to others depending on the extent of the problams that the dogs have

[rutylr]

So you should not re breed a bitch that has produced multiple ED,but its okay to keep breeding dogs who are producing multiple ED offspring?
Donna

[frontierrots]

Originally Posted by Alison

because i would state as will many breeders that i no in many difrent breeds and ours that many of the top dogs in the world have prouduced dogs with some form of dq falt at one time or another in there lives These things should not be put in the same catigory ?
Im sorry but i think its nuts to be comparing cosmetic falts to helth ?

EVERY SINGLE breeder has or will produce dogs with DQ faults, HD, ED (as the OFA defines it) and SAS. EVERYONE. Any breeder that claims they don't, hasn't or will never is lying. The breeder's goal SHOULD be to work on reducing or eliminating such faults and problems from their lines.

Each breeder has sets of items that would cause them to not breed a dog. I would hope that each breeder has the goal in mind of reducing or attempting to eliminate such things from the breed or at least their lines when they create their "not to be bred" list..
For me this list would include, temperament, intelligence, soundness , cosmetic and health issues of a wide assortment.

Breeders have the responsibility to have this/these goals in mind while at the same time striving to maintain good genetic diversity and breed type/character

[Alison]

Originally Posted by rutylr

So you should not re breed a bitch that has produced multiple ED,but its okay to keep breeding dogs who are producing multiple ED offspring?
Donna

I used a bitch that proudced cosmetic falts as an example to compare it to a bitch that has prouduced alot of ed
what im tring to say is to me its nuts to catagorize dogs that prouduce ed or any form of helth proublam in the same catagory as dogs that prouduce cosmetic falts with cosmetic falts they can still live long and helth lives with ed when they get up there in age it will evantualy cause problams

[Liz]

Originally Posted by Alison

Sweeden has bin a big time modle for it with one of the lowest hd in the world do to them just doing that (throwing the baby out with the bath water as you would say )for not leting dogs with ed being alowed to be breed Germany naw is fallowing sute if we as breeders dont start naw in north amarica in acting apon dealing with ed the problam will just worson so yes we have to be critical naw about this before it gets wost.

Sweden allows mildly affected dogs to be bred to clear dogs. Swedish Ag College studies showed the following in rottweilers:

Parents Offspring Affected, %
normal X normal 31
normal X mild ED 43
normal X mod/severe ED 48
ED X ED 56

Germany allows ED+++ and HD+ to be bred.

Liz

[BostonRott]

Actually, the VDH does not allow ED+++ to be bred......this was the answer I got years ago when I asked why the ADRK allowed ED ++ to breed but not ED+++.

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by frontierrots

EVERY SINGLE breeder has or will produce dogs with DQ faults, HD, ED (as the OFA defines it) and SAS. EVERYONE. Any breeder that claims they don't, hasn't or will never is lying. The breeder's goal SHOULD be to work on reducing or eliminating such faults and problems from their lines.

Each breeder has sets of items that would cause them to not breed a dog. I would hope that each breeder has the goal in mind of reducing or attempting to eliminate such things from the breed or at least their lines when they create their "not to be bred" list..
For me this list would include, temperament, intelligence, soundness , cosmetic and health issues of a wide assortment.

Breeders have the responsibility to have this/these goals in mind while at the same time striving to maintain good genetic diversity and breed type/character

Thank you!! The point is that if you produced multiple ANYTHING that wasn't in the best interests of the breed, a breeder should adjust their breeding program to avoid it the next time.

Thank you for the voice of reason Diane.

[Alison]

Originally Posted by TrishB

Thank you!! The point is that if you produced multiple ANYTHING that wasn't in the best interests of the breed, a breeder should adjust their breeding program to avoid it the next time.

Thank you for the voice of reason Diane.

I will ask you this simple Question agen Trish are you catagorizing cosmetic falts in the same catigory as gentic health related problams sutch as ed
Thats how I read this in the bigining on what you were stating in the biging of all this I have given many examples its just a simple anser that I ask for
as a person that breeds dogs my self if i was to chose between the two i would perfer to deal with the cosmetic falts with my pet owners then genetic helth problams that cause people heart brake and expence witch in tern would come back to haunt me

[TrishB]

At no point did I say that cosmetic faults equal health issues. I have no idea of where you would have gotten that in anything that I've said.

However, when breeding a BREED of dog - breeding disqualifying faults is not bettering the breed. Therefore I wouldn't do that either.

You pick a good representative of the breed, that meets the standard, that has lines that are proven. You get titles on that dog in various venues. You then get all of your health tests done. I consider the health tests make it or break it time. Make the educated decisions as best you can. But the dog met the standard FIRST - before you even bothered considering the dog for a breeding program.

[Alison]

Originally Posted by TrishB

There's a calculated risk in breeding a Gr. 1 elbow. You breed to clear counterparts. Of course, the dog needs to be worthy of breeding on every other count. When 41% of our breed is affected, we don't have much of a choice. Suddenly discounting them all would be throwing out the baby with the bath water.

This is where we are at with our breed - it's the corner we've painted ourselves into. We'll get better, as we move forward. Maybe in 10 or 15 years, we'll be able to lower the percentage affected enough that we won't have to take the risk. We're just not there yet.

If there are other faults, then the worthiness of the dog being bred obviously decreases. A missing tooth is a disqualification as of 2006 in Canada. So no - I wouldn't breed a dog with a disqualifying fault.

There isn't a cut and dry equation here. But the good news is that we have the databases, they're being populated and much of the guess work that breeders had to do previously is slowly disappearing. The more educated we are, the more educated our decisions may be.

'

I my self have never and will never breed a dog with a DQ falt so please do not try to change this to your ways but as what i posted Quoted up above it shere seemed to me like you were giving excuses for breeding dogs that had ed but yeat on the cosmetic you are all gun ho about so in my reading of what you were stating it shere looked like you are doing just that

[Alison]

Originally Posted by Liz

Sweden allows mildly affected dogs to be bred to clear dogs. Swedish Ag College studies showed the following in rottweilers:

Parents Offspring Affected, %
normal X normal 31
normal X mild ED 43
normal X mod/severe ED 48
ED X ED 56

Germany allows ED+++ and HD+ to be bred.

Liz

How many litters do you no that are being produced out of parents in north amarica that both parents or one parent and granparent at lest has ed that 56%is dam scary in my eyes if you compare that to the french study with hd that two displatic parents breed was in the 25% range shows you how bad the problam realy is

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by Alison

'I my self have never and will never breed a dog with a DQ falt so please do not try to change this to your ways but as what i posted Quoted up above it shere seemed to me like you were giving excuses for breeding dogs that had ed but yeat on the cosmetic you are all gun ho about so in my reading of what you were stating it shere looked like you are doing just that

My ways? You need to read through everything. It's you that's attempting to read things into this thread that simply aren't there.

What I've said is in line with the OFA. If you have issues with it, then I suggest you take it up with them.

[Alison]

im reading this as is and what dose disterb me is you having rcc ontario director under you name you do not speek on the vews of the mebers of the club that i shere do no because you are not talking my vews as a member and from my understanding you are trying to down grade the isue of Ed to me thats not wright and its not a thing with ofa with me its on what is being stated on this list bye your self

[TrishB]

I am allowed to have my own opinions Phil. Just as you are. My position in the club has nothing to do with my own personal views. Nor am I expected to parrot the views of anyone else.

I accept that we disagree on this particular topic and I consider it closed. Have a great day - I'm going out to do some tracking.

[Liz]

Originally Posted by Alison

How many litters do you no that are being produced out of parents in north amarica that both parents or one parent and granparent at lest has ed that 56%is dam scary in my eyes if you compare that to the french study with hd that two displatic parents breed was in the 25% range shows you how bad the problam realy is

The problem, as the Swedish study states, is that we don't really know that normal is normal. Just because the dogs we've tested for the last five-ten years are phenotypically normal does not mean they won't pass on ED or the tendancy towards ED. At this point we need to test and we need to make the distinction, as Diane stated, between DJD and the proven genetic problems like FCP and UAP.

I've owned a dog who had both FCP and UAP - he was crippled by the age of five. I've also owned a dog with unilateral DJD and known several others (unilateral and bilateral) who show no signs of any problems at all.

Liz