Elbow dysplasia

[rockzilla]

Originally Posted by GenHannibal

At this time, my 2 yr. old male is being x-rayed for OFA & to further research the exact reason for his intermittent limping. Preliminary exam is that he may have "elbow displaysia" and perhaps a broken bone chip that is also causing the issue.

Had a discussion with the veterinarian, a specialist in the orthopedic arena, as to why this problem is occuring at such a high rate in Rottweilers. Although it is difficult to narrow down the causes, it was stated that among the several causes: weight can have a great impact during their growth stages, genetics, and/or too much exercise & rough play. Out of the 13 rotties I've owned, this is my first one that has an issue with elbows. At the present time, I await for the final word from the vet, even though he has already said there was definitely a problem in one of the elbows. We'll see what the final prognosis is.

While I agree genetics plays a large factor, I have to also say that too many owners put too much stress on the pups as they grow by allowing them to be "stocky". What some owners think is stocky is plain old FAT!!! Not good for the bones at all.

In regards to why ED is running very high with Rottweilers, I suspect that many breeders and buyers are simply not concerning themselves at all with ED problems.... from proper breeding to environment, ED is largely ignored.

[laurlitt]

Originally Posted by TrishB

I for one know of a phenominal dog with a Gr. 1 elbow. That dog is also SchHIII and has never been lame. I would use this dog in a breeding to another clear dog. I believe that this breeding would be justified.

What if (and this has nothing to do w/ this dog b/c I don't know who you're talking about) all the siblings to this dog also had Gr. 1 elbow? Would you still consider this dog in a breeding program?

If this same exceptional dog had the lowest level of HD, should this dog also be consider okay to breed to (assuming the elbows were Normal)?

If this same exception dog had no problems w/ hips or elbows but had 1 missing tooth... should the dog be bred?

These are questions I think about (and don't know the answers). Why is it that people are constantly making excuses (or justifying) for breeding a Gr1 Elbow, but the other issues I mentioned should NOT be considered for breeding (even if the dog is exceptional and the breeding is well thought out to avoid the bad issue)...

Questions meant to provoke thought/discussion... not pointed at any dog in particular.

[TrishB]

There's a calculated risk in breeding a Gr. 1 elbow. You breed to clear counterparts. Of course, the dog needs to be worthy of breeding on every other count. When 41% of our breed is affected, we don't have much of a choice. Suddenly discounting them all would be throwing out the baby with the bath water.

This is where we are at with our breed - it's the corner we've painted ourselves into. We'll get better, as we move forward. Maybe in 10 or 15 years, we'll be able to lower the percentage affected enough that we won't have to take the risk. We're just not there yet.

If there are other faults, then the worthiness of the dog being bred obviously decreases. A missing tooth is a disqualification as of 2006 in Canada. So no - I wouldn't breed a dog with a disqualifying fault.

There isn't a cut and dry equation here. But the good news is that we have the databases, they're being populated and much of the guess work that breeders had to do previously is slowly disappearing. The more educated we are, the more educated our decisions may be.

[frontierrots]

Taking anonymous sample dog

You can't just say the dog is grade 1. I would want to know grade 1 what?

OFA grades the dogs by number and then tells you which elbow and with what exactly

I'll breed to a dog with grade 1 or even 2 DJD anyday. DJD is wear and tear on a joint and can be from many many things that are and are not genetic. (It's a given though that I prefer clear elbows)

I will NEVER breed a dog or to a dog with even grade 1 FCP, OCD or UAP. Not even if it's only in one elbow or all his relaties are clear. These are all proven genetic elbow disorders

That is also why import dogs with + elbows should always be re rated by the OFA to get an actual diagnosis so that more intelligent breeding choices can be made

[LynnS]

Obviously I am not a breeder and my girl has moderate ED in both elbows (FCP in left) - Have not OFA'd yet but I am guessing she is grade 2 in Both. Her parents and grandparents all passed elbows. After experiencing this heartbreak (Bella is symptomatic but we are treating conservatively at this point) I know I would personally not be interested in a breeding where either parent had even a grade 1 (of course I would research sibs etc as well). I am not sure I buy the argument that it is necessary to breed these dogs (but am open to listening to peoples reasoning)....

[BostonRott]

Do you know how the sibs of Bella's parents/grandparents were?

[Alison]

Originally Posted by TrishB

There's a calculated risk in breeding a Gr. 1 elbow. You breed to clear counterparts. Of course, the dog needs to be worthy of breeding on every other count. When 41% of our breed is affected, we don't have much of a choice. Suddenly discounting them all would be throwing out the baby with the bath water.

This is where we are at with our breed - it's the corner we've painted ourselves into. We'll get better, as we move forward. Maybe in 10 or 15 years, we'll be able to lower the percentage affected enough that we won't have to take the risk. We're just not there yet.

If there are other faults, then the worthiness of the dog being bred obviously decreases. A missing tooth is a disqualification as of 2006 in Canada. So no - I wouldn't breed a dog with a disqualifying fault.

There isn't a cut and dry equation here. But the good news is that we have the databases, they're being populated and much of the guess work that breeders had to do previously is slowly disappearing. The more educated we are, the more educated our decisions may be.

I disagree in most of what is being sed here . first of all 41% in my eyes is to hi it tells me that we have a serios problam with ed in our breed if we have to remove most of these dogs with ed from the breeding programs of North amarica then its what has to be done
Secondly I no a few people that have sufferd dearly with there dogs with ed to tell you its expensive and heart braking to the dogs owners
what gets me on this is if you produce puppies with dq falts and prity well all breeders have produced them they can still live a helthy life missing teth .white spots,even bad coats and so on and so on To compare dq falts in a breeding program to a kripling disorder to me is crazy those dogs can live a strong and helthy life compared to dogs with ed not that im saying to breed dogs with dq falts what im saying is i would rather re breed a bitch that has produced lets say green eyes in her litters then a bitch that has or has produced more then one bad puppy with ed that kind of dog i would fix and not breed any more

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by Alison

they can still live a helthy life missing teth .white spots,even bad coats and so on and so on To compare dq falts in a breeding program to a kripling disorder to me is crazy those dogs can live a strong and helthy life compared to dogs with ed not that im saying to breed dogs with dq falts what im saying is i would rather re breed a bitch that has produced lets say green eyes in her litters then a bitch that has or has produced more then one bad puppy with ed that kind of dog i would fix and not breed any more

While I agree with you to a point, I at no point said that you HAD to breed a Gr. 1 elbow. Only that if the dog was highly qualified to be bred (titles, lines, accomplishments, drive, temperament, etc.), that you could take the calculated risk to breed to a clear dog.

And under no circumstances would I breed disqualifying faults. I don't feel that is helping our breed at all, to perpetuate disqualifying faults purposely with the defence of 'it could be worse the dog could have ED!'. If we work on the belief of breeding to improve the breed, disqualifying faults does not apply.

Personally, I would prefer both clear parents (as the parents of my dog does). However, I also realize that we have to be realistic with where we are in our breed.

The OFA database for elbows is only 15 years old. We must keep that in mind. It's not like we didn't have elbow dysplasia before - we just didn't have a test for it. Now we do and now we can make careful selections regarding it. I'd also have issues if the Gr. 1 elbow affected the dog. If it affects them, even if it is only a Gr. 1 - I probably wouldn't breed to that either.

DQ's will always disqualify any dog from any program. Eventually we'll be able to take dysplastic elbows out of all of the programs as well - we're not there yet.

As per the OFA:

There are many factors to consider when evaluating the progress of countries that permit breeding Grade I elbows. There may indeed be reasons to consider using Grade I elbows in breeding programs for the purpose of maintaining a broader gene pool, especially in countries where the breed specific rate of ED is approximately 25% or higher (as appears to be the case in some European countries). One must balance the potential consequences as they pertain both to the entire gene pool, and to elbow disease as a part of the gene pool. With a lower rate of ED in many breeds in the U.S., the genetic pressures to include Grade I ED's in most US breeding programs may not be the same as in other countries.

Considering we are at 41% - we are well over the rates that they are discussing. Again - I'm not saying that I PREFER a Gr. 1 elbow - but if the individual meets all other criteria, yes - I'd be okay with it (for now ).

[rutylr]

To me this sends out a bad message to first time breeders.People who come on the forum and talking about breeding their dogs get the whole speach about health clearences.You have to do this,this and this before you breed your dog.But on the other hand it's okay to breed a dog who does not pass.So why test?
To me this is to confusing for new people.Do as I say not as I do.41% is nothing we have dogs coming from other countries that have passed so we are not limited to what we can breed to but who.
When it is all said and done think of what you are leaving the future Rottweiler owners,breeders.Not what you your self want for you right now just to make a name for your self.Leave people something to improve on not a big can of worms that they have to fix after you are long gone.
Donna

[TrishB]

Not every thread is for new people / first time breeders. Nor is this saying not to test at all. This is saying that you have to test, you have to publish everything to everyone and then you have to make educated decisions.

As far as I'm concerned, you need to test everything, have a titled dog on both ends, solid lines (testing one dog with an unknown / unproven background does not make it breedable).

That's why the new people threads say:
- conformation titles
- working titles
- temperament titles
- hips
- elbows
- eyes
- hearts
- COE breeding practices
and so on....

By the time you've got a proven dog, with proven lines, with multiple titles and major accomplishments, you're not talking about new people any longer.

[frontierrots]

Keepin mind that that 41% OFA figure includes DJD dogs as well as FCP, UAP and OCD dogs. It would be MUCH more helpful to breeders in accessing the ED problem if the OFA would break it down by disorder. DJD is NOT crippling and is no where near the same seriousness as the others. It's a whole different item, it's like lumping HD and torn cruciates together

Yes I want clear elbows and no I won't breed a OCD, FCP or UAP dog and I'm not likly to breed DJD to DJD.

I would like to see more broken down elbow % by problem though.

[rutylr]

Go on the OFA web site at the top it says advanced search after clicking on that click on working group then Rottweiler at the bottom it has a list of rating hips and elbows it is all broken down in there you can find all the hips(good and bad) elbows,heart,eyes,patella,VWB,Thyriod,PRA,all kinds fo test broken down.
Donna

[Judi W]

And in keeping with Diane's post, let's also not pretend that the only selections available are positive. It is one thing to make allowances for the DJD1 dogs and evaluating across the family, but let's please at least select breeding partners that are clear. I think what irritates me is the assumption that because the total percentage is higher than we would like to see, that there are no options of good clear dogs to select from to partner with those affected individuals.

There is also some consideration that even though we know the DJD individuals are showing from wear and tear, premature wear and tear is still faulty.

[Alison]

Originally Posted by TrishB

While I agree with you to a point, I at no point said that you HAD to breed a Gr. 1 elbow. Only that if the dog was highly qualified to be bred (titles, lines, accomplishments, drive, temperament, etc.), that you could take the calculated risk to breed to a clear dog.

And under no circumstances would I breed disqualifying faults. I don't feel that is helping our breed at all, to perpetuate disqualifying faults purposely with the defence of 'it could be worse the dog could have ED!'. If we work on the belief of breeding to improve the breed, disqualifying faults does not apply.

Personally, I would prefer both clear parents (as the parents of my dog does). However, I also realize that we have to be realistic with where we are in our breed.

The OFA database for elbows is only 15 years old. We must keep that in mind. It's not like we didn't have elbow dysplasia before - we just didn't have a test for it. Now we do and now we can make careful selections regarding it. I'd also have issues if the Gr. 1 elbow affected the dog. If it affects them, even if it is only a Gr. 1 - I probably wouldn't breed to that either.

DQ's will always disqualify any dog from any program. Eventually we'll be able to take dysplastic elbows out of all of the programs as well - we're not there yet.

As per the OFA:Considering we are at 41% - we are well over the rates that they are discussing. Again - I'm not saying that I PREFER a Gr. 1 elbow - but if the individual meets all other criteria, yes - I'd be okay with it (for now ).

I Want to clarfy somthing here i might of mis sed but my point is i would rather RE breed a bitch to a difrent dog that has PRODUCED puppies with a dq falt then re breed a bitch that has produced multaple puppies with ed
you are talking falts that a dog can live a long an helthy life to a problam that is cripiling and shorten the dogs life span, And also cause extrodinary pain and suffering both for the dog and the family of the dog
I also disagree we are there naw , Sweeden has bin a big time modle for it with one of the lowest hd in the world do to them just doing that (throwing the baby out with the bath water as you would say )for not leting dogs with ed being alowed to be breed Germany naw is fallowing sute if we as breeders dont start naw in north amarica in acting apon dealing with ed the problam will just worson so yes we have to be critical naw about this before it gets wost.

[TrishB]

Germany does allow +/- to be bred. And a Grade 1 elbow does not always mean crippling or pain. Many Grade 1 (DJD as Diane clearly stated) dogs go through their lives with no further discomfort than clear dogs. There needs to be a little bit of perspective here.

And no - I would not rebreed a bitch that had produced multiple puppies with DQ faults OR multiple ED. Neither is acceptable.