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  #16  
Old 04-08-2005, 12:39 AM
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Re: Breeding to an untitled bitch

Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnS
...the more I learn the harder it is determine where I would go to hopefully find the right puppy - maybe I am being too cynical though...
You had a typo there Lynn:

Delete the "too" and in your case, cynical is spelt "c-a-r-e-f-u-l". And rightfully so!
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  #17  
Old 04-08-2005, 01:56 AM
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Re: Breeding to an untitled bitch

Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnS
Francis

Are you posing this question as a stud dog owner? In my extremely small world I have seen (or read about) stud dog owners at both ends of the spectrum...
It turns out that a friend of mine was dropping her son off at school where this woman noticed crates in her van and asked about it. The woman then asked my friend if she knew of any stud dogs with decent temperaments because she wanted to breed her bitch. She didn't show because she couldn't afford it and didn't like snooty people. The bitch is OFA hips and elbows.
So my friend starts off with the question of would I breed to an untitled bitch with OFA. later she mentions the lack of money and snooty remark. That sent red flags all over the place.
Later my friend asks about where she is looking and gets that the woman used to be a vet tech. At the clinic that she worked at she saw a lot of rotts with bad temperaments, some of them show dogs. She also saw show people with attitudes coming in to get their dog's teeth/bite fixed so they could show.
I am curious now on who this bitch is. I have asked to get a copy of the pedigree. It is a possibility that this is a fabulous bitch, but I am thinking that is slim.
I have no interest in breeding my boy just to breed him. I think he has something to offer, but it has to be to the right bitch and from there, the right homes. It is easy to say no to the yokals that stop you in the street that has no clue about OFA, etc. But what about every one else? Having the discussion helps to clarify.
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  #18  
Old 04-08-2005, 08:17 AM
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Re: Breeding to an untitled bitch

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Originally Posted by bigq1999
.....She came from a byb..... Only reason I bought my female was because I knew the background of her father.....
Now I don't claim to know everything but I have learned MUCH being here and learning from my own experiences with my current dog....

I used to think it was fine to purchase a dog if it was AKC registered, its parents had the proper health clearances, if the phenotype of the parents was correct (to my eye ), and if the lines produced proper temperaments.

What I failed to consider is that (some) breeders purchase puppies as future breeding stock with a champion or two in the lines and ride off the back of these "champion lines" when discussing their own non-proven dogs. They have no intention on doing a thing with these dogs (other than breed). Such is the case with my dog. He has Norris in his lines on his father's side and a champion on his mother's side but my breeder has done NOTHING with Sonny's mother or father (other than fake an OFA certificate of Sonny's father....wouldn't want to lose money on a stud dog with champion in his lines).

She has 4 breeding females and one "champion in the lines", stud dog. All in her backyard, all breeding year round, with hip, cancer and temperament problems GALORE. O.k.....do I get the "booby prize" for not being the sharpest tool in the shed or what?! I just had no idea and took the word of my breeder who "appeared" to be honest and ethical.

At any rate, if I do ever get another Rottweiler I would want to know that the breeder is a member of a COE club and was actively proving her dogs. I would also want a relationship built on trust and not on greed. The red flag should have been raised (for me) when I asked my breeder if she had ever had any health or temperament problems in her previous litters. She said, "In 20 years I have NEVER had ONE health problem with any of my puppies...!"

While my comments have strayed a little from the original topic, I just have to say....buyer beware if you are considering a puppy from unproven stock and you do not have the experience to understand thorough background checks of both the mother and father's lines.

While my case is severe, I do believe there are others out there who have been through the same thing. Learn from our mistakes.
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  #19  
Old 04-08-2005, 08:58 AM
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Re: Breeding to an untitled bitch

Quote:
Originally Posted by fbkeays
............. She didn't show because she couldn't afford it and didn't like snooty people. .....
And spending enough time with her bitch to put on a CD is too tasking?
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  #20  
Old 04-08-2005, 09:19 AM
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Re: Breeding to an untitled bitch

If I am thinking correctly (which I may not be) then a CD is after a CGC in obedience, correct? For some reason, when I read "Titled" I think of over the top like BIS or BoB, or Sch titles, not just obedience. What titles do you all think a dog/bitch should have on them to be "proven"? I guess I ask because my pup is going to be a "pet" but I plan on getting her a CGC and hopefully more titles in obedience and then agility "just for fun" wherever that gets me. I am still very new, I guess this is kind of my practice pup as I haven't got any experience hands on going into this, just LOTS of time with books and Rott.net.
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  #21  
Old 04-08-2005, 09:22 AM
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Re: Breeding to an untitled bitch

The CD at least shows that it is a dog that can be seen out in public, has the temperament to be touched by a stranger and to sit peacefully next to another dog and has an owner that thinks enough of it to spend time with it.
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  #22  
Old 04-08-2005, 09:40 AM
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Re: Breeding to an untitled bitch

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Originally Posted by Cherry Heart
If I am thinking correctly (which I may not be) then a CD is after a CGC in obedience, correct?
So you know, a CGC (or CGN up here in Canada) is thought of more as a temperament / socialization type of test. It is a certificate for passing. It shows that the dog can co-exist in society with a nice temperament and basic control by it's owner.

A CD is an obedience title. It is the first level, Companion Dog. It is formal, requires 3 qualifying scores and an evaluation.

Just so you know why some people might not be as impressed by a CGC as they are by a CD. Of course - they'll be MORE impressed by CDX, UD and UDX...

Personally, I like a dog to have titles at both ends of the name. There are so many venues to title your dog in. People who say "oh thats for SHOW people" well - you know what? People yell, scream and hop up and down at flyball and agility. People have a great time at herding and in my VERY limited experience, are very supportive. Schutzhund people are very proud of their work and SAR people are one of the most dedicated you'll find around.

Almost ANY dog can get titles - you just have to find the right venue for them. Those who haven't just haven't tried to find the appropriate venue - dismissing them all as 'snooty' or the like.

*Disclaimer: Of course being able to afford it comes into play. It's more that 'snooty' isn't an excuse as far as I'm concerned.
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  #23  
Old 04-08-2005, 09:46 AM
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Re: Breeding to an untitled bitch

I have seen the threads with the title Abbreviations and such, but what titles come BEFORE the name and which AFTER? Oh I have such a long long way to go!
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  #24  
Old 04-08-2005, 10:09 AM
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Re: Breeding to an untitled bitch

Quote:
Originally Posted by fbkeays
It turns out that a friend of mine was dropping her son off at school where this woman noticed crates in her van and asked about it. The woman then asked my friend if she knew of any stud dogs with decent temperaments because she wanted to breed her bitch. She didn't show because she couldn't afford it and didn't like snooty people. The bitch is OFA hips and elbows.
So my friend starts off with the question of would I breed to an untitled bitch with OFA. later she mentions the lack of money and snooty remark. That sent red flags all over the place.
Later my friend asks about where she is looking and gets that the woman used to be a vet tech. At the clinic that she worked at she saw a lot of rotts with bad temperaments, some of them show dogs. She also saw show people with attitudes coming in to get their dog's teeth/bite fixed so they could show.
I am curious now on who this bitch is. I have asked to get a copy of the pedigree. It is a possibility that this is a fabulous bitch, but I am thinking that is slim.
I have no interest in breeding my boy just to breed him. I think he has something to offer, but it has to be to the right bitch and from there, the right homes. It is easy to say no to the yokals that stop you in the street that has no clue about OFA, etc. But what about every one else? Having the discussion helps to clarify.
Gotcha. Well I certainly would not dismiss the idea but I would see the same red flags you do.
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  #25  
Old 04-08-2005, 11:19 AM
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Re: Breeding to an untitled bitch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry Heart
I have seen the threads with the title Abbreviations and such, but what titles come BEFORE the name and which AFTER? Oh I have such a long long way to go!
Cherry,

I believe there is a thread or a sticky somewhere on the board which explains what all the titles and abbreviations are. Conformation titles go in front, working titles go in back for most organizations. For some reason, UKC (an alternate breed registry here in the US) puts their obed titles before the dog's name.

As to what to look for in parents, look to what you're interested in. If obedience and agility interest you, then look for people who work their breeding stock in those venues. One of the reasons that I've stuck with the European lines is because they are required to title the dogs before breeding them (with a breed test, and most do have at least a SchH1). Now while I KNOW that all titles are not equal, and some are indeed "bar room" titles (show up with your scorebook, buy the judge a few drinks, pass a few Euros and voila, you have a titled dog), I also know what to expect out of certain lines and could pretty well guess which are the barroom titles. I find that too many US lines don't work their dogs and as work is what I really enjoy (agility, obed, tracking, SchH), then that is where I turn (to proven working lines).

Now to turn this back to the original idea "untitled" ...... untitled does not mean "doesn't work." But the ability to determine THAT aspect of things takes years to develop. With the male of which I speak, his parents are all titled, and so on back through the pedigree. It's a very proven kennel with great success in both working and show, including a recent KS a few years ago, and the highest V rated ADRK male in the Working class at the KS last year (the V1 male in that class came from an area of the world where the working titles are HIGHLY suspect (see previous comments)). I have spent almost 10 years studying German lines, as long training dogs (and titling in both SchH and agility) and when I went to see this boy in January, he had all the drives, ablities and work ethic that I knew his pedigree should throw. He will in turn throw those genes and abilities (hopefully!!!), whether titled or not. The title is the "proof" to others via an accepted venue.....proof of what some of us already see/know.

I am a very strong supporter of titles and titled dogs. They're fun to earn, and I definitely prefer to see them. However, as stated in my original post, I am doing this particular breeding before he titles b/c of some recent experiece as well as how my life is all coming together right now (new baby due soon). It's been a decision that is long thought out, but one with which I am comfortable.

Last edited by BostonRott; 04-08-2005 at 11:26 AM.
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  #26  
Old 04-08-2005, 10:05 PM
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Re: Breeding to an untitled bitch

Quote:
Originally Posted by fbkeays
I have no interest in breeding my boy just to breed him. I think he has something to offer, but it has to be to the right bitch and from there, the right homes. It is easy to say no to the yokals that stop you in the street that has no clue about OFA, etc. But what about every one else? Having the discussion helps to clarify.
We say no quite often to all sorts of people with all sorts of bitches. For us, it comes down to choosing the right bitch, the right breeder and the right homes. Until that combination all comes together, the answer is a very easy "no". Because of this, I was highly criticized recently for accepting an untitled bitch (from a breeder and bloodlines that I know very well) while turning down a top ranked bitch with a pedigree and owner I wasn't as comfortable with.

The point is that there is a lot more to consider than just the bitches titles. In this case, I would first be suspect of someone who didn't have the time or the money to compete, at least at an introductory level. I'd question who much time they had to devote to puppy development and what would happen if an emergency arose with the dam or her pups.

Regarding the titles themselves, I like them because it gives me a better idea of the dog's temperament and trainability. Someone who hasn't shown in any venue doesn't have the qualifications to tell me that this dog or bitch has the what it takes to work or show successfully. And trying to make an educated guess myself based on the limited time I got to spend with the bitch would be short changing my breeding program. In the case that I would accept an untitled bitch, it would only be from a breeder who has proven that they are fully able to assess the qualities of the bitch. Those, sadly, are few and far between and, except in extenuating circumstances, they're usually titling their bitches.

Regarding showing a bit, if it had been done, you would have a better chance of getting input from other people who have seen this dog and owner out and about at events...how they treat their dog, what condition it's kept in, how the dog interacts with other dogs and people etc. Without that, all you have is the hope that this person is indeed what they say they are.

In your circumstance, I'd have to say that I'd be hard pressed to let a young stud dog's first breeding be to a bitch that I didn't know everything possible about. The information that you gather from the first litter will guide you in the direction that you should go with subsequent breedings. The best way to really understand what your dog brought to the table is to choose a bitch who is owned by her breeder who also owned several generations behind her.

Ann
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  #27  
Old 04-09-2005, 12:13 PM
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Re: Breeding to an untitled bitch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann Felske-Jackman
The point is that there is a lot more to consider than just the bitches titles. In this case, I would first be suspect of someone who didn't have the time or the money to compete, at least at an introductory level. I'd question who much time they had to devote to puppy development and what would happen if an emergency arose with the dam or her pups.
My thoughts exactly. Huge red flags went up that changed the whole situation when I heard about not being able to afford to show. At first it was the simple question of breeding to an untitled bitch in the abstract. With the second bit of information, it got real and it got scary.

Quote:
Regarding the titles themselves, I like them because it gives me a better idea of the dog's temperament and trainability. Someone who hasn't shown in any venue doesn't have the qualifications to tell me that this dog or bitch has the what it takes to work or show successfully.
I completely agree. I know of several conformation only people that think if a dog isn't a show prospect, then it is a working/obedience prospect. Like a conformation flaw automaticly makes the dog have drive, intelligence, focus and biddability. Fizbin has a lot of drive. He needs to be worked. He isn't the dog for the ordinary pet owner. On the flip side if I had bred Duncan and called his offspring working prospects, there will be a lot of unhappy owners.

Quote:
Regarding showing a bit, if it had been done, you would have a better chance of getting input from other people who have seen this dog and owner out and about at events...how they treat their dog, what condition it's kept in, how the dog interacts with other dogs and people etc. Without that, all you have is the hope that this person is indeed what they say they are.
Very true. You will have to weed through the gossiup, but with enough first hand experiences, a true picture should emerge.

Quote:
In your circumstance, I'd have to say that I'd be hard pressed to let a young stud dog's first breeding be to a bitch that I didn't know everything possible about. The information that you gather from the first litter will guide you in the direction that you should go with subsequent breedings. The best way to really understand what your dog brought to the table is to choose a bitch who is owned by her breeder who also owned several generations behind her.

Ann
Very good advice. This was the sort of thing that I had imagined, but not really made concrete in my mind. These discussions really help formulate and clarify my own values and ethics.
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  #28  
Old 04-09-2005, 08:38 PM
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Re: Breeding to an untitled bitch

Now I don't claim to know everything but I have learned MUCH being here and learning from my own experiences with my current dog....

I used to think it was fine to purchase a dog if it was AKC registered, its parents had the proper health clearances, if the phenotype of the parents was correct (to my eye ), and if the lines produced proper temperaments

SonnyRott. When I sad I knew the father's background, I knew he came from a kennel that did not have temp or health problems. Not like your case I was not fooled I knew first habd what I was buying. My wife always commits on how sweet ang loving this female we have is. She loves that fact that she can give this dog a command once and she listens. Sorry you did not due your homework.
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  #29  
Old 04-09-2005, 09:00 PM
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Re: Breeding to an untitled bitch

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigq1999
SonnyRott. When I sad I knew the father's background, I knew he came from a kennel that did not have temp or health problems. Not like your case I was not fooled I knew first habd what I was buying. Sorry you did not due your homework.
She did her homework. The problem was that the breeder LIED and FALSIFIED the OFA certificates. That's quite different than not doing one's homework.
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  #30  
Old 04-10-2005, 08:08 PM
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Re: Breeding to an untitled bitch

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Originally Posted by bigq1999
.... I have a 2 year old female that I'm going to breed......
.....She came from a byb....I guess I'm saying that if you do your homework then dogs do not have to be titled.
I am glad you have a very sweet female. You got lucky. My point, and the reason I shared my story, was that I did do my homework (thanks BR ), but was lied to on many levels. Right on down to the alias that she used on the AKC paperwork.

What I also learned is that if an "ethical" breeder does not value working, training and proving their dogs (prior to breeding) then I would be hard pressed to buy a puppy from them. Lesson learned.

Im curious though....you stated that you did your homework....but you bought your female from a BYB??

In any event, I hope your female continues to do well in the ring and I pray that you never run into the unscrupulous person that I did.
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