Question about breeding failing hips/elbows

[BostonRott]

Bitch is bred to Stud A, produces multiple failing elbows and multiple failing hips (including mod and severe HD). Bitch is bred to Stud B. Puppies haven't OFA'd yet (not old enough). Bitch is bred again to Stud B (repeat breeding). Is it me, or would you have waited for Litter #2 to come of age and OFA before creating more of the same?? Bitch owner blames Litter #1's problems on Stud A, yet when you pull him up, there aren't very many failing elbows or hips in his other litters........

This is a real situation, based on real dogs. I present it to get people to open their eyes a bit, and learn to do their research. Just because something is promoted as the best thing since sliced bread.........learn to utilize the OFA database for your own benefit, search on parents, siblings to parents and previous production of the BOTH parents.

[Judi W]

I watched the same thing with bites. Bitch produced a litter of 9 with only one correct bite. Blamed stud. Bred again - oh goodie, a litter of 12 with two good bites (an improvement). A very quick look at this bitch's sibs would have answered the question. She was the only one in her litter with correct dentition.

[Rotty4Me]

Originally Posted by BostonRott

Is it me, or would you have waited for Litter #2 to come of age and OFA before creating more of the same??

ABSOLUTELY! I can never figure out just what the rush is to repeat a breeding before the original litter has been health cleared? Prior to completing all health clearances, the only reason to do a repeat would appear to be purely cosmetic in nature in looking at what is on the outside only. How can that be justification to do a repeat without having knowledge of what lies deeper?

I agree.

Maureen

[sophie's-mom]

Originally Posted by BostonRott

Just because something is promoted as the best thing since sliced bread.........learn to utilize the OFA database for your own benefit, search on parents, siblings to parents and previous production of the BOTH parents.

Well, that would be too much work on the buyer's part. THEN they would have no one to blame but themselves. See, if one DOESN'T do the research and just takes the breeder's touts to heart then it was the BREEDER that did the wrong, not the buyer who should have been MORE AWARE!!!

Some people feel better about themselves in the ostrich position.

[fbkeays]

Originally Posted by BostonRott

learn to utilize the OFA database for your own benefit, search on parents, siblings to parents and previous production of the BOTH parents.

I don't mean to hijack the thread but this last statement is very important. There are several breeders in my area that are advertising litters/studs with OFA'd everything. But when you look up the dog in OFA, all it has is hips. No elbows, no CERF, no thyroid, no nothing. On their website they state that the parents have OFA everything, but they don't. I know of several dogs and bitches that have been x-rayed, but the results are not on the OFA website. That means only one thing- the dog failed.
These people sell dogs at high prices to a guilable public. Most of their puppy people are "pet" people that don't know how to verify the verbal/written (website) assurances that the puppy that they are getting is actually going to have a chance at being healthy.

[rottielover2004]

where is that website, see as a buyer, I knew nothing of that website, my breeder was a referral from another very well known breeder in quebec, but my dog is from Ontario..... Please can I have that website

[BostonRott]

Francis, you're not hijacking at all, that's entirely the point of the thread...........DO YOUR RESEARCH!!!

Rottielover,

OFA is a database mostly of US dogs. Some Canadian breeders submit their dogs, but in Canada, you have the OVC instead of OFA. OVC unfortunately does not have a searchable database (unfortunate for them!).

OFA's website is: http://www.offa.org

[rottcrazed]

I guess you also need to look at the breeder who owns the bitch and their idea of what ethical breeding is. Personally, I have too many other things to do with my bitch (ie.. open trialling, utility training, agility and tracking) to be breeding her that many times that close together. My bitch is NOT just a brood bitch. I know others do keep a bitch as a brood bitch only, but if she has produced pups with health issues, the breeder should be taking a look at why she is being kept as a brood bitch. Isn't the idea of breeding to better the future for the breed and for our kennels and lines and to go forth with healthy dogs to be bred into the future? Does that make sense?

I want to know of my bitch's first litter who is healthy and if there are ANY issues before she is ever bred a second time. I can't imagine having a bitch who has produced (or at least helped produce ) a litter of dogs with failing OFA results to produce another and then another untested. It is too big a risk IMO.

Is the breeder in it for the cash? Did the second litter produce some amazing show dogs so amazing that it is worth repeating before testing???? Not in my opinion - not even if the litter is full of best in show dogs. What good are a bunch of best in show dogs if they are unhealthy ????

Kristi

[frontierrots]

Originally Posted by BostonRott

Bitch is bred to Stud A, produces multiple failing elbows and multiple failing hips (including mod and severe HD). Bitch is bred to Stud B. Puppies haven't OFA'd yet (not old enough). Bitch is bred again to Stud B (repeat breeding). Is it me, or would you have waited for Litter #2 to come of age and OFA before creating more of the same?? Bitch owner blames Litter #1's problems on Stud A, yet when you pull him up, there aren't very many failing elbows or hips in his other litters........

This is a real situation, based on real dogs. I present it to get people to open their eyes a bit, and learn to do their research. Just because something is promoted as the best thing since sliced bread.........learn to utilize the OFA database for your own benefit, search on parents, siblings to parents and previous production of the BOTH parents.

Agreed

If there are multiple problems in litter A I would certainly be waiting on the results of litter B before breeding her again, at all.

[sophie's-mom]

A good tool on that website is the VERTICAL PEDIGREE

If you look up the STUD or DAM of the litter your are considering you can click on the VERTICAL PEDIGREE and see MORE than the face page of your dog in a little better light.

I just looked up a rottweiler that is OFA EXCELLENT - the vertical pedigree SURE shows a LOT of ZEROS and ONES for dogs related to this stud being OFA'd

NOT good in my opinion.


XXX DOG
subject "EXCELLENT"

Sibs(0)

Offspring(0)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
XXX SIRE
sire "GOOD"

Sibs(0)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
XXX GRANDSIRE
paternal grandsire "NORMAL"

Sibs(7)
NORMAL(7)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
XXX GRANDDAM
paternal granddam "NORMAL"

Sibs(5)
NORMAL(1)
GOOD(1)
NORMAL(3)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
XXX DAM
dam "FAIR"

Sibs(0)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
XXX GRANDSIRE
maternal grandsire "GOOD"

Sibs(6)
GOOD(5)
FAIR(1)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
XXX GRANDDAM
maternal granddam "GOOD"

Sibs(1)
GOOD(1)

[lblax]

[quote]

Originally Posted by sophie's-mom

I just looked up a rottweiler that is OFA EXCELLENT - the vertical pedigree SURE shows a LOT of ZEROS and ONES for dogs related to this stud being OFA'd

NOT good in my opinion.

that only means that the owners of these siblings didnt have the ofa done for various reasons such as they are pets and possibly nuetured or they simply are not breeding.. i looked up storms and it is full of very good ratings but like his particular litter only three got ofa dont confuse this with the thought that it shows zero so the hips must be bad it can only compare to how many were tested and there results you can only make a desicion on looking back as far as you can ... for the most part dogs simply dont get ofa'd many do like i did i had him prelimbed at 18 months to make sure that he was capable of doing the work but i never sent them in simply because why spend the money when he was never to be bred even though he plelimbed good to excellant he is one of the zeros on the vertical pedigree

[sophie's-mom]

dont confuse this with the thought that it shows zero so the hips must be bad

Trust me, I don't!

BUT without ALL the information one MUST err on the side of caution.

How can you have a stud with EXCELLENT hips and have ANY idea what he can possibly produce without ALL the information? Is that stud the RULE or the EXCEPTION??

I don't assume all the hips are bad but I DO question WHY there aren't more siblings of THAT stud and siblings of the PARENTS in the database, as ALL potential puppy owners SHOULD.

Originally Posted by lblax

that only means that the owners of these siblings didnt have the ofa done for various reasons such as they are pets and possibly nuetured or they simply are not breeding..

Don't assume that dogs not in ofa are just pets, neutered or not being bred. THAT is not the correct way of thinking to get this breed back on track.

I believe that they should ALL be ofa'd and they should ALL be in the database, good or bad. But you're hard pressed to find ANY HD dogs in that database. It's just NOT the information breeders want out there.

[Judi W]

Well, some breeders require at least the hips for all pups, including the pets, so they will know what the gene pool is producing. Due to the expenses involved it is not always practical for all the tests, but at the minimum the hips do give you a good indication of the strength in the family.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by sophie's-mom

I believe that they should ALL be ofa'd and they should ALL be in the database, good or bad. But you're hard pressed to find ANY HD dogs in that database. It's just NOT the information breeders want out there.

yes that is a good belief but will never happen you can still make a very educated desicion by reasurching farther back by the percentages.. out of all the dogs ive owned i had 1 ofa'd simply because i wanted to breed her although i never did... ive had all the dog prelimbed for my own satisfaction while it would be nice to have it for the records you simply will never get people that are not intending to breed resposibly to fork out the cash.... also if the dogs were sent in for ofa's they would be in good or bad if you can go back 3 or 4 generations and you find the ones that are in the book all have good or higher i would feel confidant in buying from those lines even though it may list 6 siblings and only 3 or 4 are in the book you look for percentages

[ladycricket]

So would that mean that if your pet is neutered/spayed you should still OFA just for reference for future litters? I don't know how many people would spend that kind of money to prove a pet is genetically sound if they aren't planning on using that information for themselves. I certainly would look at getting Jake OFA'd (on hips at least) if it would benefit his half siblings proof of health for dam and sire's previous litters. This is very interesting.