Elbow dysplasia and breeding

[BostonRott]

I know that there's a lot of controversy regarding breeding dogs with ED, especially if it's only Grade I, even more so if it's unilateral.

I was perusing the OFA page, and they've got a Q&A section on elbows that's quite interesting. Among other things, I found this. What makes it of particular interest for me is that many of the adult imports to this country arrive with ED++ elbows, their breeding values for elbows are to high to use in Germany, so they come here. I still ask, if you're breeding for a working dog, why would you breed to a certifiably incorrect front??

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"Examination of the OFA database reveals the following mating probability results for 13,151 breeding pairs of dogs with known elbow status:

Normal Elbows x Normal Elbows = 12.2% offspring affected with ED

Normal Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 26.1% - 31.3% offspring affected with ED

Dysplastic Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 41.5% offspring affected with ED

In this very large breeding study (primarily Labrador Retrievers, Golden Retrievers, Rottweilers, and German Shepherd Dogs), the rate of ED more than doubled when one parent was affected, and more than tripled when both parents were affected. In any breed where the overall percentage of affected dogs is already lower than the percentage that can be expected when a dog affected with ED is bred to a normal dog (26.1% - 31.3%), one would find few circumstances in which progress can be made by breeding a dog affected with ED."

Source: http://www.offa.org/edanswers.html

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Thought I'd open it up for discussion to see what people think. There are plenty more questions/answers listed at the above URL.

[Judi W]

I believe that people do not realize how very important the elbows truly are. In many respects they are more important than the hips as they carry the majority of the dog's weight, and must absorb all the landing pressure even when just moving, and especially when any jumping is involved. A dog can shift weight forward to compensate for a lesser rear end, but they cannot shift weight to the back. The Rottweiler is a heavy-bodied dog and those elbows must be able to do a lot of work. In the process I also read the OFA Q&A's. They did a very good job on the subject.

I was investigating a "family" this week as I had been asked to look at possible mating matches for them and I was shocked at the very poor representation in regard to elbows in this entire family! They were busy worrying about heads and pigmentation and all I could think was that I wasn't convinced any of them should be bred at all.

[BostonRott]

The one thing I didn't like about the Q&A section was that they lump all the causes into the Grade I DJD. I personally would like to see whether it was an FCP, UAP or OCD or simply DJD. If the elbows weren't rated until 5-6yrs old in a dog who has worked hard, and they simply had DJD, as opposed to other etiologies, how would that sway you as a breeder?

[Judi W]

Well, my boy is OFA'd elbows (CHIC all the way) and I refilmed them a few months ago (age 6) as we are continuing with some work involving quite a bit of jumping and it was for my satisfication only. They were clean and beautiful. So, I don't think it would sway me. At one time I thought it would, but after studying the results of disregarding the importance, I don't think I would anymore.

A generation or more ago, I could understand it, but at where we are now, I want to see them done and at the right age.

One other problem I see with the imports as well is that they xray at a much earlier age than we do here in the US and then never look at them again.

[BostonRott]

We did Frol's hips/elbows in Germany at 17mos (took her over there on vacation) and she came out HD- ED-. We then did her OFA at 2 (right after her heat) and she came out Good/clear. I would like to see more imports repeat their ratings at 2, if they were done before.

I too reshot Frol at 5.5 (elbows), when she was spayed because of the agility we were doing, and like your experience, no changes (never resubmitted, just for my own info).

[fbkeays]

Originally Posted by BostonRott

The one thing I didn't like about the Q&A section was that they lump all the causes into the Grade I DJD. I personally would like to see whether it was an FCP, UAP or OCD or simply DJD. If the elbows weren't rated until 5-6yrs old in a dog who has worked hard, and they simply had DJD, as opposed to other etiologies, how would that sway you as a breeder?

Fizbin was rated as DJD1 in both elbows. 15 months later I had his elbows redone and at multiple angles. I had copies of his OFA x-rays and compared them to the new ones with the help of my vet. Fizbin doesn't have FCP, UAP or OCD. What he does have is a small bump on the tip of his humerus (both elbows) that has not grown and does not interfer with the ulna. He should not have any problems with his elbows in his life.
Misty was rated as DJD1 in both elbows and she did have problems by age three, mainly refusing jumps and not engaging in volunteer exercise (playing with Duncan in the yard). By age 5 she was not able to do most things without going lame. We managed her activities and had her on large dosages of ascriptin to keep her painfree from normal life. Both of her parents were rated as normal.
How do breeders know the difference between a elbows that don't fit the perfect elbow picture, but doesn't cause any problems and those that do cause the problems when they are rated the same?

[Judi W]

I used to think like you do. No clinical signs by xx age, then they should be fine. As I mentioned though, after reviewing the families and offspring of these dogs, I no longer feel that way. The failure of passing elbows for the offspring of these dogs is much higher than it should be.

[Judi W]

BTW, if I were importing an older pup or adult dog I would ask (and of course offer to pay for) xrays to be taken and sent to the OFA for certification or prelim before proceeding with the purchase.

[AdonisRotts]

Well I think you can't compare OFA elbow exams to other elbow certs in other countries, the films aren't shot the same. Even the vet who did our OFA's (he is an orthopedic specialist associated with the university) said that OFA just isn't consistent with elbow ratings. He looked at her hips and said excellent (was correct) and he took a magnifying glass and said her elbows were clear (ended up grade I DJD), in slovakia they were done when she was almost 3 she got HD-A and ED-, her OFA's were done at just over 4 years of age. My vet also said he has submitted elbows which should have failed and they passed. His opinion was that not all of them "know" what they are looking at. I don't know if he is correct or not, but it won't change my mind.

[AdonisRotts]

Just out of curiosity I called my ortho vet and asked him a couple of questions this morning. I was curious about whether he knew the results of that study posted to OFA's website, he said that he has the actual study somewhere in the office. He claims that it was very hastily done, in response to an increasing urge to change from using one film to using 2-3 films (like most other countries do). He said that OFA is very persistent about not changing it's protocol which is aggrevating alot of ortho vets. He said that the study does not account for whether ED was graded I, II, or III and whether it was DJD, OCD, UAP, or FCP, when calculating the averages. He said that study might have some weight if they had done it correctly. By that he meant that it should have been calculated by doing
normal x normal
normal x grade I
normal x grade II
normal x grade III
grade I x grade I
grade I x grade II
etc, etc. It then should have been recalculate using the designator OCD, FCP, etc.
He then went on to say that he is concerned that it may overwhelmingly decrease the breeding population. He said that at last figures only 60% passed elbows (of those submitted, alot of people still don't do elbows), and comparing that to he said only about 1 in 5 OFA screenings do the owners request elbows too. He said you can pull the data regarding # of hips submitted vs elbows. He said anytime you greatly decrease the population that much there is going to be a genetic drift toward some other problem. He said that he thinks at this point there should be some sort of guidelines/criteria to help breeders manage breeding affected individuals and making better choices.
He also said that you have to emphasize that you can not compare doing hip x-rays to elbows, it is like comparing apples and oranges especially when it comes to DJD.
Most of you know that hips are fairly clear cut, they generally weight most of the eval on joint conformation which can easily be seen 1 dimensionally on film. Elbows on the other hand are evaluated on joint density, etc which can be affected by film density and shadowing, along with standard conformational aspects. (I can tell you that from personal experience reading human x-rays) He jokingly laughed and said, "It only takes a tiny faint cloud to fail and elbow, which could easily be human error."
His final point was that there are lot more enviromental factors which affect elbows that should always be taken into consideration. He said that he hoped that some of the breed clubs would help urge OFA to re-evaluate its protocol regarding elbows or help establish proper guidelines which would not jeopardize the genetic heath of a breed. He pointed out that you should not only look at phenotypic ratios but genotypic. He said that he has seen people breed dogs whose elbows were clear but sibs graded II or III and feel justified because they bred to a clear, when they would have been better off breeding to someone with grade I that sibs were clear or I as well.
Okay that was enough of my big mouth on the subject. My vet is very interested in elbows and he is VERY interested in seeing the long term outcome of (including overall health) the various breeds.

[frontierrots]

I agree. The ortho specialist vet I spoke to here said that OFA does not require enough views and that they don't read them right.

He also said that DJD is NOT ED and is injury related

I would breed a dog with DJD but not with an actual ED issue

[Judi W]

And sometimes those convictions are conveniently adjusted to what one wants to do. The OFA website quite clearly states that breeding decisions must take into consideration the gene pool and selection choices. With a small population and limited choices of course expectations must be adjusted. Fortunately the Rottweiler breed has a fairly large population and a fairly decent selection of breeding partners available.

[AdonisRotts]

Originally Posted by Judi W

And sometimes those convictions are conveniently adjusted to what one wants to do. The OFA website quite clearly states that breeding decisions must take into consideration the gene pool and selection choices. With a small population and limited choices of course expectations must be adjusted. Fortunately the Rottweiler breed has a fairly large population and a fairly decent selection of breeding partners available.

Well I would have to say that my ortho's convictions wouldn't have anything to do with what someone else wants to do. Why does OFA have all that on their website? It is to defend their position on elbows and to prevent a change that should definitely occur. They claim that their submissions are more cost effective, well if the cost of an extra film or two on an exam is going to break me, well then I shouldn't breed at all.



http://www.offa.org/elbowstatbreed.html

This is the statistics from last year and it does not include CERF exams. Look at the difference in submissions for hips vs elbows. Only 1 in 8 even submitted elbows. Also according to the stats there are approximately only around 4,700 dogs who passed elbows. You know that MOST individuals who failed Cardiac and CERF exams would not submit the results, because they know before submitting the paperwork that they failed, so there are countless numbers of dogs that failed. There are only approximately 1500 dogs who passed Heart alone.

Elbow Dysplasia Statistics

http://www.offa.org/stats.html#breed

[AdonisRotts]

Okay for some reason it submitted that wrong but I will finish with this.
You take what dogs are left that passed elbows, and subtract those that failed hips, failed heart or cerf, or those who didn't even have any of those done.
Then you try to look at the health clearances of siblings (pass/fail rate), the overall health of the lines (predisposition to cancer, longevity, etc), temperment, and working ability of those left.
You have to subtract those that have a disqualifying faults from possible breeding pairs (not all submissions are done for breeding purposes, some breeders just request that they be done). So you take what is left, a high estimate would be 1, 000 dogs/bitches. You try to genotypically and phenotypically match the two, always taking into account that you are breeding to the "standard". So all of those left may not be compatible with one another. To say that you haven't severely restricted the breeding population is very untrue.
I just think that in everything there is a gray area. Rotties aren't in position yet to eliminate Grade I's without negatively affecting the gene pool. It is isolating the gene population too much.
OFA even states on their website that food, growth rate, exercise, and strenous activity can all affect joints. I just feel that everyone should make the most informed decision possible.
Okay, I am getting off the soap box, that is just something to think about

[BostonRott]

Originally Posted by AdonisRotts

Look at the difference in submissions for hips vs elbows. Only 1 in 8 even submitted elbows. Also according to the stats there are approximately only around 4,700 dogs who passed elbows. You know that MOST individuals who failed Cardiac and CERF exams would not submit the results, because they know before submitting the paperwork that they failed, so there are countless numbers of dogs that failed. There are only approximately 1500 dogs who passed Heart alone.

But you can't make that a valid comparison either. OFA is not evaluating eye exams or cardiology reports. They are taking a passing exam (which you've already been told by a board cert'd specialist whether you passed or failed) and simply registering it. With hips and elbows, OFA *is* the evaluating authority.

As well the point could be made that general practitioners are better at evaluating hips than they are elbows, and so therefore fewer failing hips are submitted because they're caught early.