Champions/Breeding

[Urika]

What are the chances of a dog becoming a champion (of any type) if he does not come from champion bloodlines?

Has anyone here purchased a pup that did not descend from champion lines but became a champ?

[diddybopper04]

There are plenty of them out there.

But as an old friend and mentor of mine was wont to say......

"You cannot get chicken salad from chicken $#it."

[Judi W]

What are the chances? Very small. If you want a dog to show and possibly breed, you are much more likely to get one from families that have proven themselves to be of that quality. Yes, some pets can finish, but the investment is quite high and even if finished, they still should not be bred, so why would you put the money into it?

[Urika]

Originally Posted by Judi W

Yes, some pets can finish, but the investment is quite high and even if finished, they still should not be bred, so why would you put the money into it?

And why shouldn't they be bred?

[spidey]

I agree with the other comments. There's nothing wrong with showing a dog who isn't from champion lines, and you could certainly title such a dog, but by the same token, dogs who are unproven should not be bred as a general rule, so I likely wouldn't choose a puppy from a breeder who didn't title their dogs in the first place (it's not that being a champion intrinsically means a dog is worth breeding, or is a better dog than one that's not a champion, but it's one good indication that someone other than the owner (i.e. a judge, who ostensibly knows conformation) feels the dog is a good example of the breed). There's more that needs to be considered when breeding that just whether a dog is a champion (like temperament and working ability - which is why performance titles are also valuable), but personally, I think that anyone buying from a breeder should look for titles in the pedigrees, whether they intend to show their dog or not.

[Judi W]

pets from pets from pets not going to carry the genetic material that should be in a breeding program.

[Urika]

Originally Posted by spidey

I agree with the other comments. There's nothing wrong with showing a dog who isn't from champion lines, and you could certainly title such a dog, but by the same token, dogs who are unproven should not be bred as a general rule, so I likely wouldn't choose a puppy from a breeder who didn't title their dogs in the first place (it's not that being a champion intrinsically means a dog is worth breeding, or is a better dog than one that's not a champion, but it's one good indication that someone other than the owner (i.e. a judge, who ostensibly knows conformation) feels the dog is a good example of the breed). There's more that needs to be considered when breeding that just whether a dog is a champion (like temperament and working ability - which is why performance titles are also valuable), but personally, I think that anyone buying from a breeder should look for titles in the pedigrees, whether they intend to show their dog or not.

Thanks for the explanation, Spidey. I am seriously trying to learn:)

[diddybopper04]

I am of the opinion that with the right handler and enough money, almost ANY dog with no DQ faults can finish. I know of several finished animals that were altered practically on the day they were finished, and there was never any intention of breeding. These dogs were finished for the breeder's satisfaction, and for no other reason. Nice dogs, all of them. But not breeding quality for many people, including the owner and breeder.

We should ruthlessly select only our very best for breeding. Being a pet is an important job for a dog. For most breeders, however, these dogs do not belong in their breeding program.

It all boils down to goals, and respect for the breed. People who go on to become successful breeders care enough to educate themselves before they undertake any breeding. These people are not likely to use dogs with an unproven pedigree, as nice as they may appear phenotypically.

[spidey]

Originally Posted by Urika

Thanks for the explanation, Spidey. I am seriously trying to learn:)

Learning is good! This is an issue that some people have problems with, since it's obvious (as diddybopper pointed out) that a CH does not a breeding-quality dog make, but as I said, it's one bit of evidence toward proving that a dog is worth breeding. Especially in a breed like the Rottweiler, where there are many dogs out there and many unscrupulous breeders, it's in every breed fancier's best interest to only support ethical breeding, and part of ethical breeding is breeding to improve the breed, not to sell puppies, and part of breeding to improve the breed is only breeding dogs of independently proven worth. The vast majority of puppies will go to pet homes, and many people feel this is a reason to breed for pet-quality dogs by breeding pets to pets, I disagree. A dog of proven parents is not only just as likely to be a good pet as a dog of unproven parents, but the dog's health is likely to be better, since good breeders do extensive health testing and also dogs with correct conformation are less likely to suffer from certain structure-related health problems.

[augustus]

Last year I purchased a "Show Quality" female Rottie from a breeder who has some of the best German bloodlines. I took her to a show in California when she was four months old, the breeder was also showing her dogs that day. I was very heartbroken to find out that her teeth were too crooked to enter. She is now 16 months old and has a severe underbite. I was given a Replacement male puppy from the same sire but different dam, he is now nine months old and also has a severe underbite and cannot be shown. The breeder tells me that she only gives one replacement pup but will make an exception in my case. What I need to know is are these bite problems hereditary?? I am afraid to get yet another pup. I did lots of research and thought I was getting one of the best bloodlines but apparently the breeder keeps the best pups. Any info anyone can offer will be greatly appreciated.
FYI- the replacement pup was sickly when I got him and within the first month got Valley Fever, I believe due to his weakened immune system, and has to be on medication for goodness knows how long.

[Mavides]

Originally Posted by augustus

Last year I purchased a "Show Quality" female Rottie from a breeder who has some of the best German bloodlines. What I need to know is are these bite problems hereditary?? I am afraid to get yet another pup. I did lots of research and thought I was getting one of the best bloodlines but apparently the breeder keeps the best pups.

FYI- the replacement pup was sickly when I got him and within the first month got Valley Fever, I believe due to his weakened immune system, and has to be on medication for goodness knows how long.

I know we can't give breeder names on here...and I think you're just a junior member, so I can't pm you - but I'd be VERY curious to know where you got your pups from. I do know of a breeder out your way - actually further out in the boonies :) - and although she has some dogs FROM decent dogs, she does absolutely nothing with the dogs she actually owns - leaves them outside in the awful AZ heat all day as none of them are housebroken - doesn't show because she "doesn't have time" - breeds without OFAs - and breeds some just for pet quality on purpose....and I have seen her dogs and did find bite problems with them and YES those problems are hereditary! I'm not sure if you even got your dogs in AZ...but if this was the person that you got them from...RUN!!!!!

If you've already been stung twice, I would strongly suggest looking elsewhere! Hopefully the pups that have gotten have been spayed/neutered and are turning out to be well loved family pets at least! When looking for your next show pup, I would strongly recommend going to a show and starting your search there. Best of luck!!! Are you going to the show in AZ on October 16th & 17th?

[TrishB]

I would suggest that you think of Champions / Breeding in the opposite direction. Think of it this way:

Can two Champions, from Champion bloodlines, generate both Champions and Pets? Yes!

In fact, in a litter of 8, you may not get ANY potential Champions - even though they themselves are form Champion stock. They'll still be lovely pets, with good temperaments (assuming of course that the parents had their health clearances and some working titles too).

Breeding is not an exact science. As the other poster noted - genetics can rear their ugly heads and create disqualifying traits. So if the general rule is to "Only breed to improve the breed" it goes to say that only the best of the best should be bred, to increase your chances of breeding a 'best' puppy!

So increase your chances! Breed only dogs that have earned titles both before (conformation type titles) and after their names (working type titles), that have the required health clearances (hips, elbows, eyes and heart). That way you'll maximize your chances of getting a great puppy. Compromising on any of the above really isn't an option.

Why take the chance of breeding less than the best? There are already SO many others out there that need homes that came from 'good pets'. Petfinder.com currently have 3073 Rottweilers that desperately need homes.

[laurlitt]

Originally Posted by augustus

What I need to know is are these bite problems hereditary??

That is the belief... The rottweiler has many disqualifying faults in the show ring that have to do with the mouth (undershot bite, overshot bite, wry bite, 2 or more missing teeth) while there are breeds that have no faults pertaining to the mouth/bite.

[Judi W]

Yes, bad bites are inherited. It is not a problem with the teeth, but a structural problem where the upper and lower jaws are not in proper relationship with one another.

[Urika]

Thanks for your replies everyone! My original post was regarding champs, and had nothing to do with breeding. I guess someone changed my title. And, I want to make it clear that my questions have nothing to do with my dog. This topic came up in Diesel's class last week. One of his classmate's descend from champion bloodlines BUT I want to say, if I remember correctly that the championships ended with her great-great-great grandparents.


From reading the replies I gather that champion dogs are predisposed? Unlike humans, at anytime we're able to make our mark in the world if we put forth dedication, time, and effort? Example: My husband will be the first in his family to earn a Ph.D. He used to be a food prepper in the Bronx.

So, if two "pet quality" pets produced a few beautiful specimens with the correct markings, temperment, excellent health, et cetera. Would the reason for not breeding them be that one would be unsure what type of dogs the beautiful specimens would produce?