Champions/Breeding

[spidey]

Originally Posted by Urika

So, if two "pet quality" pets produced a few beautiful specimens with the correct markings, temperment, excellent health, et cetera. Would the reason for not breeding them be that one would be unsure what type of dogs the beautiful specimens would produce?

I'd say yes, that's the primary reason. Genetics is very far from an exact science at this point, and regardless of how good any one dog is, you have to also take into consideration the other dogs in that dog's background (a good example of this is the way knowledgeable people often approach hip scores: they're more interested in the hips across a whole litter, and of ancestors, than in the one specific individual, because this tells you a lot more about the sort of genes an animal is carrying than just looking at that one animal). This is also why, for example, you'll often find extremely successful race horses who do not produce offspring with anything even remotely approaching their own ability, even though you'd think that they should - the individual may have won the genetic lottery, but the genes it passes on are for the most part pretty poor (from a racing standpoint, anyway).

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by Urika

....So, if two "pet quality" pets produced a few beautiful specimens with the correct markings, temperment, excellent health, et cetera. Would the reason for not breeding them be that one would be unsure what type of dogs the beautiful specimens would produce?

In a nutshell, yes. When you put forth the time and the effort to do things in a way that will truly benefit the breed, call it research and development, it's really like one big poker game. You want the odds stacked in your favor.

If I have a solid genetic base to start from, that is; dogs that have been proven in temperament, health and conformation, then I have a better chance of utilizing that knowledge in a way that will *hopefully* improve upon what I start out with. It is a breeder's dream come true, to bring out the strengths, and extinguish the weaknesses in these areas.

How could I possibly stack the odds in my favor, if I breed dogs with no real known history.... they may be nice dogs..they may be drop dead gorgeous...they may have personality plus...but even when/if they pass all the health clearances, where's the history to back up the nice specimen?

The majority of pet owners or BYB's do not xray their dogs 'just to know' for sure... they certainly don't go to the lengths that ethical breeders do to sort out and decrease the chances of hereditary defects that affect breed health as a whole. So, essentially, there's no proof in the pudding, and the odds are quite a longshot of really starting a solid breeding program from here.

There's a lot of nice rottweilers out there. But just because a dog is nice, does not warrant the dog being bred.

[TrishB]

And as I mentioned before - even KNOWN histories may produce faults. There are many lines which are well known for possessing particular traits that should either be encouraged or discouraged. Without that background knowledge, you may inadvertantly encourage traits that should be avoided. There are also lines that 'just don't mix'. They don't compliment each other.

So if you have a beautiful dog from an unknown background - title it, work it, love it. Just don't breed it. Leave that up to the professionals.

[Ironbark]

Here in the UK, very few dogs ever attain the title of Champion, and almost none gain working qualifications. From well established kennel, you could easily buy a promising puppy that only has a Ch. a couple of generations back. There are about 30 championship shows in the UK and Ireland each year, and Rott's average between 200-300 entries at each show. Champions compete for the CC (Challenge Certificate, 3CC's = Ch.) alongside those trying to gain their title, and some dogs gain 40 or more CC's during their career, while conversely, complete unknown's also regularly appear on annual CC lists.

[spidey]

Originally Posted by Ironbark

Here in the UK, very few dogs ever attain the title of Champion, and almost none gain working qualifications. From well established kennel, you could easily buy a promising puppy that only has a Ch. a couple of generations back. There are about 30 championship shows in the UK and Ireland each year, and Rott's average between 200-300 entries at each show. Champions compete for the CC (Challenge Certificate, 3CC's = Ch.) alongside those trying to gain their title, and some dogs gain 40 or more CC's during their career, while conversely, complete unknown's also regularly appear on annual CC lists.

This is common in my breed as well - but the dogs are well-known regardless of whether they're titled or not (a rare breed has some advantages in this respect), and the ethical, knowledgeable breeders know which lines mix and which don't, which dogs are/were up to standard, and which aren't, and what the hazards of some lines are. In a more popular breed, this is a much more challenging task. It's also important to keep in mind the way things work in different countries, and the way the different titles and health clearances compare with each other (given how difficult it is to get a CH in the UK, simply having a CC might be comparable to a CH from some other kennel clubs, if you see what I mean) - I know in my breed in Finland (and other places), a dog is given a "suitability for breeding" rating in addition to other titles. We often get a bit North America-centric on this board I think and we tend to forget that things like titles are not 100% equal across the board around the world when we make our big pronouncements about "how things should be".

[Ironbark]

Originally Posted by spidey

We often get a bit North America-centric on this board I think and we tend to forget that things like titles are not 100% equal across the board around the world when we make our big pronouncements about "how things should be".

For the basic CD (always done in a farmers field!) the exercises are-
heel on lead and free
sendaway (at least 20 yd)
recall
2 minute sit stay and 10 minute down stay (out of sight)
3ft clear jump
6ft scale
9ft long jump
dumbell retrieve
15 square yd search square (3 articles)

Dogs have to be trained and FIT to gain trials qualifications, I guess that's why so few dogs gain any - a shame, I think the British obsession with conformation alone is wrong. But you're right, there's a lot of variety throughout the world.

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by Ironbark

For the basic CD (always done in a farmers field!) the exercises are-
heel on lead and free
sendaway (at least 20 yd)
recall
2 minute sit stay and 10 minute down stay (out of sight)
3ft clear jump
6ft scale
9ft long jump
dumbell retrieve
15 square yd search square (3 articles)

Dogs have to be trained and FIT to gain trials qualifications, I guess that's why so few dogs gain any - a shame, I think the British obsession with conformation alone is wrong. But you're right, there's a lot of variety throughout the world.

This sounds like an incredible test of training, ability and fitness! Are there not any lower level tests? It would seem that if this is the first level, that it would be very overwhelming to anyone just starting out - to the point where many just wouldn't bother.

The entry level shouldn't be so high that it in itself becomes a deterrent. Just my 2 cents.

[Ironbark]

Originally Posted by TrishB

The entry level shouldn't be so high that it in itself becomes a deterrent. Just my 2 cents.

'The CD is designed for the new dog/handler, and should be attainable by any obedient and well behaved companion'. The higher stakes introduce tracking and then manwork. Of course, it isn't attainable, witness the number of people who can't manage to get their CGC's! Anyway, this is exactly why so few British dogs have any working qualifications, because most owners/breeders aren't interested/committed enough to even try. Crufts does have 'working' classes for some breeds, though they are seriously under-subscribed, and they introduced CGC classes last year - about which there was a huge outcry of 'what a waste of time'. I know of 1 Ch. Dobe with a CD, and 1 Ch. Bouvier who's CDX, UDX, but that's it. I believe 1 or 2 Rotts have gained dual qualifications in the past, but it's not something a British breeder would look for when selecting a stud dog/ brood bitch. Shame.
I stopped training my male ACD in trials because he was damaging himself jumping straight off the top of the scale (it's a long way down for a 19" dog), and plans have gone out the window with my Rott, unilateral HD showed up on the rads last week.

[SonnyRott]

Urika -

Here is a link I think you will find helpful.

http://siriusdog.com/articles/bell-p...-diversity.htm

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by Ironbark

'The CD is designed for the new dog/handler, and should be attainable by any obedient and well behaved companion'.

Wow - I don't know of any beginner level dog that can do all of those things. Nevermind a beginner handler.

[laurlitt]

Originally Posted by TrishB

Wow - I don't know of any beginner level dog that can do all of those things. Nevermind a beginner handler.

Beginning level doesn't need to be 'young'. This is only a small part of what is expected to complete the first 'entry' level of Schutzhund. Getting titles on the back half shouldn't be too easy.

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by laurlitt

Beginning level doesn't need to be 'young'. This is only a small part of what is expected to complete the first 'entry' level of Schutzhund. Getting titles on the back half shouldn't be too easy.

I agree that it shouldn't be too easy but this:

For the basic CD (always done in a farmers field!) the exercises are-
heel on lead and free
sendaway (at least 20 yd)
recall
2 minute sit stay and 10 minute down stay (out of sight)
3ft clear jump
6ft scale
9ft long jump
dumbell retrieve
15 square yd search square (3 articles)

Isn't an entry level Schutzhund title either. A BH doesn't come close to this (which is what I consider an entry level schutzhund title - please correct me if I'm wrong).

While I think you don't want it to be too easy - you do want some level to be able to be obtained so that people just starting out can:
a) be successful
b) be encouraged to continue

A CD here in North America is fairly easy - but it is because of that solid foundation laid down by a CD, that people feel compelled and encouraged to continue. Again - my 2 cents.

[damp]

Originally Posted by laurlitt

Beginning level doesn't need to be 'young'. This is only a small part of what is expected to complete the first 'entry' level of Schutzhund. Getting titles on the back half shouldn't be too easy.

I agree!

At least in my country we have many levels of lower tests than BH and SchH1 but those are not titles and will not be printed on the dog’s pedigree.
“If you can pull a title in a vending machine” (so to speak) and if all dogs can get a Champion title they are not worth much.

[damp]

Originally Posted by TrishB

Isn't an entry level Schutzhund title either. A BH doesn't come close to this (which is what I consider an entry level schutzhund title - please correct me if I'm wrong).

You are wrong...most but not all countries require BH before entry to SchH/IPO

[laurlitt]

Originally Posted by TrishB

Isn't an entry level Schutzhund title either. A BH doesn't come close to this (which is what I consider an entry level schutzhund title - please correct me if I'm wrong).

The BH isn't a schutzhund title. Schutzhund comprises of tracking, obedience, and protection (all at the same time). The BH is designed to show that the temperment of the dog is sound to compete in Sch. and the dog can show basic obedience & control. As a handler you start training for SchH I and somewhere along the way you stop and get the BH (not train for the BH and then move on to SchHI). A dog starting as a puppy can be in training for 3-4 years before earning SchHI (some younger).

So I guess what I was getting at... In order to earn the first Sch. title it isn't an easy task and requires that the dog (& handler) can prove a lot. I guess you could consider a BH as an easier stepping stone or getting your feet wet some before taking the big plunge :)