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Breeding Just about anything related to breeding should go here. Please remember, litter announcements are fine, but puppies/dogs for sale, through posts or links, are strictly prohibited. The discussion of breeders is not permited.

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  #31  
Old 09-04-2004, 02:16 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Snyder, NY (via Toronto)
Re: How To Tail Band

Quote:
Originally Posted by sherri
When you put a rubber band tightly around your finger it hurts, and continues to hurt until blood flow is restored. That is the reasoning for the pain. If it hurts, we attempt to stop the pain by taking the rubber band off.

How could this be a more humane method than just docking?? Docking is so much quicker, and of course it hurts, but once the tail is gone it is gone. That part is quick and easy.
When you put a rubber band tightly around your finger, you are not putting it on anywhere near as tightly as you put a band on for tail docking, the reason it hurts is that you are merely restricting the blood flow and putting pressure on the nerves. The bands put on to dock tails are tight enough that the blood flow is reduced to almost nothing (this is how the end of the tail dies), and the nerves to the tail are not fully developed at the age tail docking is done. You cannot compare putting an elastic band on a human finger to putting a tail docking band on a few-day-old puppy's tail, the tightness of the band is different, and the amount of nerve supply is different.
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  #32  
Old 09-04-2004, 05:03 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Canada
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Re: How To Tail Band

Quote:
Originally Posted by rottsnroses
One poster even recommended buying a book and posted brief instructions. .

Yes, I did post it.
I would rather give someone good advice then bad advice or no advice.
Give people some credit. Just because they asked for an opinion does NOT imply that they will run home, jump in the whelping box and start butchering puppies.
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  #33  
Old 09-04-2004, 05:25 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Re: How To Tail Band

Quote:
Originally Posted by sherri
When you put a rubber band tightly around your finger it hurts, and continues to hurt until blood flow is restored. That is the reasoning for the pain. If it hurts, we attempt to stop the pain by taking the rubber band off.

How could this be a more humane method than just docking?? Docking is so much quicker, and of course it hurts, but once the tail is gone it is gone. That part is quick and easy.
I wonder if you have experience with both methods? Puppies at the age of banding AND docking are neurologically immature, and current thought is that the pain centers are less mature and infant puppies under 5 or so days of age do not experience pain as an older puppy or dog does.

I am stating personal experience. I observed the docking of my first litter, and I banded personally the second litter, and I will never EVER do surgical docking again.

I will reiterate: my banded puppies nursed immediately after the banding. They were a tiny bit fussy for several hours, and after that there were no issues. They ate. They eliminated. They grew. Normally, and tails were gone inside of 72 hours. No screaming. No frantic bitch. No stitches.

If you don't want to band your puppy's tails, then you should use other perfectly acceptable methods, which would include surgical docking.

For me, it is banding all the way.
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  #34  
Old 09-04-2004, 06:57 PM
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Join Date: Jan 1970
Location: Holliston, MA
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Re: How To Tail Band

Quote:
Originally Posted by sherri
When you put a rubber band tightly around your finger it hurts, and continues to hurt until blood flow is restored. That is the reasoning for the pain. If it hurts, we attempt to stop the pain by taking the rubber band off.

How could this be a more humane method than just docking?? Docking is so much quicker, and of course it hurts, but once the tail is gone it is gone. That part is quick and easy.
Because puppies do not have fully developed neuro systems at the time of banding. Your finger is (hopefully) neurologically intact. They do not have hearing or sight, and until 21 days, there is NO difference on an EEG between waking and sleeping, thus no true consciousness. Puppies are not neurologically developed, this is well documented in literature.

And I must agree, I do not see people telling the OP to go ahead and band the tails themselves, nor has anyone given directions. If it will make you feel better, I'll add this addendum to my original post:

This should NEVER be done by a first-timer, should not be read online or in books and then attempted, and when one is going to band a litter for the first time, one should have a mentor on site, showing one how to do it.

As for me, I never have to worry about it again.
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  #35  
Old 09-05-2004, 05:05 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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Red face Re: How To Tail Band

Well I have read all the forums on this subject which I posted on about tail docking. Lets get one thing straight here.I said I WAS only considering docking my own tails, secondly there are alot of people with different ideas on how they do it themselves, thirdly I thought what better place to ask about about banding was in this forum.So I was just interested in how other people did it and did they come across a problem, which other rottweiler breeders whould like to know, and save any problems in the future.There is know need to write telling people off , and the people which have given me good advice, thank you. With anything involving something important like this I like to get other peoples opinion on how they do it.I do understand that you don't know me from a bar of soap, but my breeder and I just thought it would be interesting to see what other breeders of rottweilers had to say.So please don't get to upset about this post. Thank you.
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  #36  
Old 09-05-2004, 09:18 AM
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Join Date: Jan 1970
Location: Holliston, MA
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Re: How To Tail Band

Does your breeder have experience banding tails? It does not sound like it. If not, please have them locate somone who does, as you should have someone experienced show you how to do this. That person should be able to answer all the questions that you asked, as they are basic questions in terms of knowledge of the procedure.
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  #37  
Old 09-05-2004, 10:27 AM
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Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Tucson, AZ
Re: How To Tail Band

Some observations from this end of the debate. I can't recall tail docking being covered in small animal surgery lectures at school, aside from basic surgical principles, this is something new vets learn from their employers. Tail lengths are tough to judge in 3 day old puppies. For Rottweilers, if it looks proportional at that age, then it will be too long when the pup grows up. The tail looks extremely short when docked correctly at 3 days of age. You end up cutting right next to the anal sphincter, which is a scary thing if you aren't at ease with the procedure.

The correct surgical technique is:
Clip hair from mid tail to above base of tail.
Surgically scrub with betadine and alcohol.
Inject a ring block of local anesthesia around base of tail and into dewclaws, (if being removed)
Wait a few minutes and repeat scrub
Cut tail and put a ligature of absorbable suture around vertebra to control bleeding(not usually needed in toy breeds)
Close skin with surgical glue.

Some vets don't clip the hair, many don't use the local. With this technique there is no post docking agitation or crying. Once returned to their mother the pups settle down and nurse.

As far as tail lengths are concerned, there are so many breeds with so many different requirements, that I always ask the owners what length they want (except for Rotts) and mark the tails under their direction. That way if they aren't happy, it was their decisision, not mine.
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  #38  
Old 09-06-2004, 03:56 PM
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Lake City,Michigan
Re: How To Tail Band

At the vet clinic i worked at the vet would determin the tail length and then use hemostats to clamp off the tail and tug the end off,then sew it shut.With dews they would use scissors to cut the dew claw out and then use a quick stop stick to seal off the area.The puppies were fine in a few min.Only one time can i remember a litter being unpleasant after a procedure and they were almost 1 month old.The owners were told they should have had them done alot sooner and were advised of complications.
I am no expert and i would not be brave enough to do either method myself.I thought i would just tell you guys what my experiences were.
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  #39  
Old 09-06-2004, 06:16 PM
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Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Tucson, AZ
Re: How To Tail Band

Ouch. A hemostat applied to a tail crushes blood vessels, nerve, and bone too, if placed incorrectly. Very traumatic way to dock, although there shouldn't be any problems with post surgical bleeding. I won't dock after 5 days of age. If the owner insists, the only option I will offer is docking the tail under general anesthesia after the pup has had all its vaccinations(15 weeks of age). Once they hear the price on that, no one has taken me up on it.
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