Genetically Tailess????

[Nikkirott]

Any one know anything about how some rottweilers come out genetically tailess. Is that considered a fault?? A local breeder is using this as her big selling point as she says. I was wondering if that is something oyu would even want to breed into. I called her and she went on and on about the favorable trait of being tailess and how she doesnt want anyone else to have a dog like that in the florida area because it will take away her business.... Sounds like someone is just breeding for money:( :( :(

[PooPooPie]

Tailless Search Results

[Goniella]

Born tailess is NOT something you want.... It is a genetic FLAW. I know someone who has at least one natural bobtail in her litters, and she is trying to breed out the gene. I mean think about rottweilers are supposed to be born with tails... so if they aren't there is a spinal deformity as the tail is part of the spine and it is now missing.... there are many things you need to watch that bobtail puppy for involving spinal development... a bobtail can still be of show quality and you can even breed a bobtail but in doing so you need to be sure you are not breeding your bobtail to another bobtail or even a dog who had a bobtail littermate. My boy was born with a full tail but his littermate brother was a bobtail, so if I was planning on breeding him I would need to breed him to a female with no bobtails in her history.... the more you double up on the bobtail gene the more likely you are to have a puppy born with not only the spinal deformity of no tail, but spinal cord problems,mobility problems.... so in short NO IT IS NOT A FAVORABLE TRAIT for ethical people!

[BostonRott]

Shows that breeder's complete ignorance of genetics and health issues. Run far and fast. Natural bobtails (or tailless) have a much higher rate of spinal problems and neurotube defects. NO THANK YOU!

[spidey]

I'd be interested in seeing some actual hard data about a greater incidence of spinal problems in natural bobtails. There are many breeds where natural bobtails are very common (including my breed and my particular dog), and to my knowledge these breeds don't have a higher incidence of anything except being born tailless. Yes, it's a spinal deficit, but it occurs late in the spinal development (development happens from head to tail), and affects only the last few vertebrae, so there's no medical reason it should be associated with a higher incidence of higher-up spinal problems (and it's also, oddly, almost 100% common in humans :p ). Breeding specifically for it seems questionable to me, but the natural bob itself shouldn't be a problem for an individual dog.

This article about breeding bobtailed Boxers (by way of crosses to Pembroke Welsh Corgis, a naturally bobtailed breed) indicates that there is no higher risk of problems in natural bobtails, except among homozygous natural bobtails, which usually die as embryos anyway.

This person is doing a long-term study to determine if natural bobtails have any higher incidence of problems (which leads me to believe that there isn't any data on this currently available - if there were, I would likely have heard of it, since I did a LOT of research before choosing my breed and there are no breed-related health problems in Vallhunds, which have a high incidence of natural bobtails, so if there was a higher than normal incidence of things like spina bifida in the breed, I'd have heard about it).

There is some evidence to suggest that homozygous natural bobtails die early in embryonic development - but since litter sizes don't seem to be much affected by this, if at all, there's a theory that these deaths take the place of some of the embryos which would have been reabsorbed naturally anyway to limit the litter size - thus litter size isn't affected.

See also here, which discusses natural bobtails in Rat Terriers, but which doesn't cite any actual studies.

[BostonRott]

I don't have studies on hand, haven't looked at the problem in years. I'd suggest doing a medline search, sorry I don't have the time to go searching for it all. Perhaps in some breeds this is not a problem, but in Rottweilers and Dobermanns, the natural bobtail is not a good thing, and to breed for it is to ask for huge problems.

[lblax]

well regardless of what natural bobtail causes they are just plain freaks of nature a dog with a birth defect and should not be bred, or this trait try to be acheived

[spidey]

Here is an article which contains faily extensive research about Pembrokes, which, after x-raying numerous naturally bobtailed dogs, refutes the idea that a natural bob tail has any associated health problems. Again, I'm absolutely not agreeing with breeding for a single trait (like a bobtail), I'm just interested in determining whether it's factual to state that there is any greater risk of health problems among dogs with natural bob tails - thus far, the reading I've done indicates that there are no associated health problems with natural bob tails.

[Goniella]

No offense Spidey but this is a breeders website.... the white doberman breeders also have pages on their webpage swearing there are no health problems with the white dobes...


Frankly it's common sense that a breed that is supposed to be naturally born with a tail, but has no tail at birth is a genetic malformity... its also common sense that anything born without the end of its spinal cord would have predispostion for spinal problems... Docking the tail is one thing... but when the dog is born without it then there has been a malformation of the SPINE period... not a removal of the end of the spine but a MALFORMATION...... a malformation of any type means there is a predispostion for problems associated with that malformity...

[los]

excuse me Goniella I wasn't aware this was a breeds website.Is it really?I've been here a week and didnt get that impression so can someone please tell me what this site really is about. thought it was was rottie info and rottie lover's

[Goniella]

Los I wasn't talking about rott.net I was talking about the link spidey sent

[MARYDVM]

There are a huge number of problems associated with the Manx cat breed's tailless conformation. There are a number of essential nerves controlling bowels, bladder, and rear leg function that are often disrupted with the absolute lack of a tail. However, the "stumpy" Manx and the Japanese Bobtails that have at least a few tail vertebrae have none of these problems. If the bobtail being bred for in dogs is not the extreme total lack of tail vertebrae, then there shouldn't be any extra health problems occurring.

[Goniella]

Thank you for being the voice of reason MaryDVM... the fact is that the rotties born with partial tails that still need to be docked slightly are fine... the only tailess rotties I have seen born have had no tail vertabrae... no stub nothing just a little tuff of hair that looks like a nub.... and the more you double up on the gene the worse it gets.

[spidey]

Frankly it's common sense that a breed that is supposed to be naturally born with a tail, but has no tail at birth is a genetic malformity...

Erm...breeds are all the same species - the default state is having a tail, so it's always a malformation of the spinal column to be born tailless. I don't disagree that it's a malformation (it is), what I disagree with is that a congenital bobtail necessarily carries a higher risk of associated problems - the evidence I've seen thus far doesn't seem to back this up. Again, I'm not agreeing with this woman breeding for taillessness by any means, I'm just pointing out that it doesn't seem to be accurate (going by the evidence at hand anyway, which is pretty sparse) to say that naturally bob-tailed dogs (most of which have at least one or two tail vertebrae) have any greater incidence of problems than any other dogs. I don't think we really understand the genetics, but it seems likely that most naturally bobtailed breeds' genes code for the tail to stop growing below the point at which it could cause problems, and that most puppies whose spinal columns stopped growing above this point are reabsorbed as embryos.

What Mary says makes sense, that it depends on how tailless the dog is. If the spinal column stops forming below the level at which the nerves requried for continence and the like are located, then there's no reason a dog born tailless will have any problems whatsoever, which is really the only point I'm trying to make here.

[TrishB]

I think the difference here is that since natural bobs aren't common in our breed, we shouldn't necessarily breed for it. The 'degree' of tailessness can cause problems, and we're not dealing with a known factor here - it makes sense to avoid it.

In other tailess breeds, the lines are well known, which lines cross well with others, etc. Which ones would cause problems or not.

Personally I would avoid any 'new traits' and treat it as an unknown. There are so many other possible risks and other traits that we need to concentrate on for improvement - I'm sure that the very few that have this trait can be avoided in a breeding program.