A law against Breeding to often?

[jenkins]

I recieved my rottweiler, when it was about 6 1/2 weeks. I know this is way to early, but she has turned out to be a great dog with no problems. ANyways, I was looking in the local papper and the people I purchased my dog from is breeding again. I feel sorry for the bitch, they breed her so damn often. Now there selling pups for 100.00 and giving them away at 6 weeks. Is there anything I can do. There only in it for the money. Only 3 survived when I got mine. Do you think this is becaues they breed there dogs so much. Also I found out its brother and sister. Can I do anything?

[James.OConnor]

Not sure on the US kennel club, but I know in the code of ethics for the registration of dogs in the Irish Kennel Club (imagine UK is the same):

4. I shall not mate from any bitch kept by me (a) under one year of age, (b) or over eight years of age, (c) for not more than six litters, (d) or dogs over the age of twelve years. Permission must be sought and granted by the Irish Kennel Club to exceed these provisions.

[samanthac]

No, there is nothing you can do. The are no laws, the dogs are their property and they can pretty much do what they like.

You could ry to issue a complaint with the local Animal Control division or the local humane society in order to try to make life uncomforatble for them. However, if the dogs are in good health and not being abused and provided with proper food, shelter and water, then there is really nothing that either entitiy can do beyond an initial visit.

Unfortunately unlike Europe, where dogs have to pass breedability tests and breed wardens strictly monitor the breedings, here we can breed as indiscriminately as we like.

We could have this system here, but then the people who pose themselves as supposed ethical breeders that convince themselves that theri dogs are something they are not, would be screaming and yelling about their rights because they know that in a system of disciminate breeding that their dogs would never cut the muster.

But thats America for you. The rights of the few outweigh the well being of the many.

[Carina43]

Aren't there laws in some counties about selling puppies too early? I'm not sure if six weeks qualifies...but it would definitely be worth calling your local animal Control and putting the situation to them.

Good luck.

[nick teifke]

Originally posted by samanthac

Unfortunately unlike Europe, where dogs have to pass breedability tests and breed wardens strictly monitor the breedings, here we can breed as indiscriminately as we like.

We could have this system here, but then the people who pose themselves as supposed ethical breeders that convince themselves that theri dogs are something they are not, would be screaming and yelling about their rights because they know that in a system of disciminate breeding that their dogs would never cut the muster.

But thats America for you. The rights of the few outweigh the well being of the many.

I believe you only have to pass a breed test if you want to register the dog. You can breed any dog and not register them, can you not?
Furthermore, the breed test is subjective. It is given to dogs who dont deserve it, and withheld from those who do. Every breed test under a different judge is different.
We could never have this system here :) There are too many big time breeders who would never dream of subjecting their dog to protection work.

[godfreyc]

What a TERRIBLE country we are based on something as ridiculous as freedom SHAME SHAME you bad America

[samanthac]

Originally posted by nick teifke
I believe you only have to pass a breed test if you want to register the dog. You can breed any dog and not register them, can you not?
Furthermore, the breed test is subjective. It is given to dogs who dont deserve it, and withheld from those who do. Every breed test under a different judge is different.
We could never have this system here :) There are too many big time breeders who would never dream of subjecting their dog to protection work.

No, in Europe, Germany specifically, the dog must pass the Korung in order to be bred. In order to continue breeding they must retake the Korung every two years. They can apply for a lifetime Korung (Gekort bis EzA) in which the dog is determined to of excellent breeding stock and not needed to test every year. Females can only br bred to the age of 8 and males to the age of 9. Yes, you are correct in that a litter cannot be registered unless the dog has a Korung, so technically two non-Korunged dogs can be bred, but I will tell you why this does not happen as told to me by an FCI/ADRK judge/Breeder/former show person.

Germany is a very small country. They are a very arrogant people who have a lot of pride. So when they breed they breed to breed the best dog to beat out whomever has the current best dog/kennel. They are always striving to outdo each other. They breed to be the very best and to gain recognition, because that is the German mentality, hence they follow all the rules very closely.

In addition to that, Germany is a very small country and 'poor' in relation to the US because the cost of living is very different over there. Stud fees run between $400 and $600 as do what we would call show quality pups. Can you imagine that someone purchased a Rick vom Burgthann or a Ken vom Scwaiger Wappen for a mere $400? To us that is a steal, but to them, that is a lot of money.

So, by following the rules and breeding the very best dogs possible that are very successful in the show rings, produce good get, they make a name for themselves...most importantly over here in the US. Then we want to import their dogs. And we pay top dollar for them. One good sale and that family is set.

For instance, I know of a dog very recently that was sold out of Germany to someone here for $125,000. Now here that is not a lot of money due to the state of our economy. But in Germany and Europe where the cost of living is MUCH lower and the dollar is worth more, that can set a family up for a LONG, LONG time.

So between their arrogance to be the best and breed the best, and their desire to become known so that can sell theri dogs here to America and make a lot of money, they have the incentive to try to meet or exceed the written standard. If you ask most Germans they will tell you that for the right price, they would sell their own mother...and that comes straight from the horse's mouth.

And let's face it. All of the most famous. most accomplished. most legendary Rottweilers, the ones who shaped this breed into what we know it today, came out of Germany...Ives von Eulenspeigel, Timm von Mummler, Rick von Burgthann, Doc von der Tuefelsbrucke, Arri vom Hertner Wappen, Dingo vom Schwaiger Wappen, Vicky vom Schwaiger Wappen, Ken vom Schwaiger Wappen, King vom Schwaiger Wappen, Santo vom Schwaiger Wappen, Hassan vom Konigsgarten, Nero vom Scloss Reithem, Chris vom Obergrombacher Schloss, Irk vom Obergrombacher Schloss, Bea von der Teuflesbrucke, Benno von der Schwarzen Heide, Matcho vom Burgthann, Balou vom Silberblick, Danjo vom Schwaiger Wappen, Donner vom Herrengarten, Noris vom Grutenblick, Muck vom Grutenblick, Hero vom Hohegeiss...the list could go on, and on and on. They are consistently producing Klubsiegers, Bundeseigers, World Seigers. When was the last time you heard of an American dog/import winning any of these titles???? Or the first time for that matter?????????

And if their system is so corrupt, then why are we and have been for years importing THEIR stock to build and improve our stock. We import German/Belgian/Hungarian dogs by the hundreds every year to improve our lines. Yet, you never hear about Germans importing our dogs to improve their limes. Its because they breed consistently good dogs because they have a system that works and they understood genetiics and linebreeding long before it was a flash in the pan over here. And we know it and have been unsuccessfully trying to emulate it for years.

And furthermore, why do you think that Germany and Europe are not frought with rescue dogs like we are here???? Because they breed much more discriminately. There are fewer breeders and fewer litters bred. They take a lot more care with their breedings because, again, due to their arrogance and desire to produce the best, they breed with one sole goal in mind...to exceed the written standard in every way. They do not want substandard litters so they are very careful how they breed...a substandard litter will make them no money. And German/European buyers are much more discriminating than we are...again, due to their arrogance and pride, be it a breeder, pet owner, show person. They want high quality dogs. I've talked to more than one American with ties in Germany/ Europe that say even the dogs that turn out pet quality are still in many cases far superior to the show quality that we are breeding here.

So as much as we hate to admit it, deep down we know that the Germans know what they are doing and that their systems works. The reason it would not work here is that 90% of the dogs would not cut the muster and it would put a lot of breeders out of business.

...which would help clean up our rescues and shelters so I would think you, Nick, would be all for that! ;)

[samanthac]

Originally posted by godfreyc
What a TERRIBLE country we are based on something as ridiculous as freedom SHAME SHAME you bad America

Freedom is not a bad thing, but the twisitng of freedom into an undecipherable thing is. I love America as much as anyone else and live in a family of military people who have served in all levels of every branch of the military. They have been police officers, firefighters, nurses.

It just makes me sad sometimes that I live in a country where a murderer or rapist has more rights than the victim. Where a child abuser had more rights than a child being abused. Were it takes a wife being killed before the police will do anything to stop her abusive husband. Because their rights have to be protected.

Again, instead of the well being of the many outweighing the rights of a few, the rights of the few now outweigh the well being of the many. That is NOT waht freedom is supposed to be about.

Forgive me for digressing....but I felt the need to defend myslef against a 'smart butt, sarcastic' comment. ;)

Now, back to our regularly scheduled thread!

[Judi W]

Sorry, but I am quite certain Nick is correct. The suitability test is a requirement of the registry, it is not a national "law". Someone can breed mixes or purebreds as long as they have no desire to register them with the ADRK. In the US, the code clubs have certain requirements and different breeds have requirements that reflect their specific breed, but these are not "laws" and an individual can chose to ignore them.

When one gets all enamored of Germany, remember that is the country that has had the most intrusive breed baning ever and they are just now attempting to mitigate it. It is easy to fall in love with "laws" that one feels reflects one's own position, but there is great danger in it. I think it is quite spurious to equate breeding restrictions with letting a murderer walk free.

BTW Jenkins, by purchasing a puppy from someone like this you simply encouraged their activity and supported it. An educated consumer can make a big difference. All you would have had to do is read a book or look at a breed website

[jenkins]

BTW Jenkins, by purchasing a puppy from someone like this you simply encouraged their activity and supported it. An educated consumer can make a big difference. All you would have had to do is read a book or look at a breed website

Yes , I know that. Remember this thread
your 2 cents

[nick teifke]

Originally posted by samanthac

And let's face it. All of the most famous. most accomplished. most legendary Rottweilers, the ones who shaped this breed into what we know it today, came out of Germany...Ives von Eulenspeigel, Timm von Mummler, Rick von Burgthann, Doc von der Tuefelsbrucke, Arri vom Hertner Wappen, Dingo vom Schwaiger Wappen, Vicky vom Schwaiger Wappen, Ken vom Schwaiger Wappen, King vom Schwaiger Wappen, Santo vom Schwaiger Wappen, Hassan vom Konigsgarten, Nero vom Scloss Reithem, Chris vom Obergrombacher Schloss, Irk vom Obergrombacher Schloss, Bea von der Teuflesbrucke, Benno von der Schwarzen Heide, Matcho vom Burgthann, Balou vom Silberblick, Danjo vom Schwaiger Wappen, Donner vom Herrengarten, Noris vom Grutenblick, Muck vom Grutenblick, Hero vom Hohegeiss...the list could go on, and on and on. They are consistently producing Klubsiegers, Bundeseigers, World Seigers. When was the last time you heard of an American dog/import winning any of these titles???? Or the first time for that matter?????????

I believe if we had better access to those shows and trials, we would blow the Germans away. But how many people can afford to show in Finland or Italy? We just dont have good access to FCI events, so I dont believe that is a fair comparison. And its thru no fault of ours.
Yes, the system in Germany is preferable to what we have. But they also have a country that is nowhere near our size. They can have breed wardens and strict requirements. There is just no way we could do that, we're too spread out here.
I think we produce alot of good dogs here, and nothing prevents you from producing to the ADRK guidelines, or any other guidelines for that matter. But its not mandated and we are allowed to produce what suits us, which is the fairy and the devil all rolled up into one.
I dont think we need all dogs to be breed tested. Do we need some type of requirements? Maybe. Hip, elbow and heart testing would be what I would like to see required. Eyes might make the list too. But I dont believe in the breed test enough to require it of every breeding.

[samanthac]

The suitability test is a requirement of the registry, it is not a national "law". Someone can breed mixes or purebreds as long as they have no desire to register them with the ADRK.

I don't think I said anywhere that it was a law :), but rather a requirement, meaning an ADRK requirement. Sure they can, but I have talked to enough Germans to know that this is not desireable and money cannot be made off unergistered or mixed dogs. I am not saying that the Germans do not love their dogs, but more than one of them has told me that most Germans would sell their mother for the right price. Its a business in Germany and one does not make money selling substandard 'product'. They'd be insane not to register a litter of baby Rick's or Bea's.

Also they would not be able to show unregistered dogs. That is not desireable because they could not gain notariety by proving the dog which leads to sales of dogs which means money.

When one gets all enamored of Germany

I am not all 'enamored' of Germany :). But I do admire the German kennels and their breeding programs and I am not ashamed to admit that!!!! They have produced some of the finest, most winning, consistently producing Rottweilers in the world. They obviously have a keen understanding of genetics and phenotyping. They CONSISTENTLY produce good, typey dogs with good temperemants that can susccessfully compete in both the show and conformation venues, which is why we are always trying to get our hands on their dogs to improve our lines.

All I am saying is that Americans are so quick to dismiss the German breeding programs when we could all learn so much from it.

And the subject was not on breed bans ;). You cannot persecute all Germans for the acts of a few (Green Party). That would be like associating all animal lovers with PETA. ADRK did fight the tail thing albeit unsuccessfully and the muzzle law was reversed as well as the bans of Rottweilers and Pitbulls in many provinces. And I am sure that the German Rottweiler breeders who make a lot of money and noteriety off their dogs do not want their breeds banned either. Someone from Germany told me that this kind of thing has happened before. When the political tide in Germany changes, things will change. No matter where you go there will be BSL.

I think it is quite spurious to equate breeding restrictions with letting a murderer walk free.

Please do not put words in my mouth :). I did not say that. :)

I believe if we had better access to those shows and trials, we would blow the Germans away. But how many people can afford to show in Finland or Italy? We just dont have good access to FCI events, so I dont believe that is a fair comparison. And its thru no fault of ours.

Actually if you talk to some German people you will find out that they do not travel all over the world for their shows. Most of the Germany people have very modest living arrangements. They are not a wealthy people. Their economy is not like ours. They are a small country. They travel to mostly local ADRK shows and the Klubseigers, Korungs, etc. very, very rarely if ever, leave Germany. Heck one judge that was over here not to long ago is a janitor by trade. If the clubs did not pay to fly him over, he could not afford to come here to judge.

I am not saying that some, very few in my opinion, American dogs could not compete well in FCI venues. Look at Jenecks Sam. But we don't see the Germans rushing over here to show in our shows either because they also cannot afford to travel all over the world. So they could say the same of us...through no fault of their own.

Yes, the system in Germany is preferable to what we have. But they also have a country that is nowhere near our size. They can have breed wardens and strict requirements. There is just no way we could do that, we're too spread out here.

Yes, the system is prefereable to ours...we have no system. People breed as they choose. Where there is a will, there is a way. The problem is not that we could not do it, but rather that is would force a lot of breeders out because their dogs could not cut it. And that is where the fight would come from.

However, I find it funny that we are quick to dismiss the German system, but every single one of ours clubs try to emulate it in some way(s). Dosen't USRC have breed wardens????? ;)

I think we produce alot of good dogs here, and nothing prevents you from producing to the ADRK guidelines, or any other guidelines for that matter. But its not mandated and we are allowed to produce what suits us, which is the fairy and the devil all rolled up into one.

Amen. I have seen some very nice dogs produced here, but they are so few and it makes me SO sad. We have the money, the time and the wherewithal to produce some very fine dogs...every single bit the caliber of the German/Eurpoean dogs that we are importing. If people got serious and really wanted to.

And yes, nothing prevents people from following ADRK guidelines exceot that most people don't because they know that their dogs can't meet the requirements and that is why they fight it and dismiss it. Face it, the requirements are quite rigorous. At least 75%,a nd I am being generous, of the dogs I see on the show circuit could never meet those standards.

Yes, it is sad...the fairy and the devil, what an eloquent way to put it.

Do we need some type of requirements? Maybe. Hip, elbow and heart testing would be what I would like to see required. Eyes might make the list too. But I dont believe in the breed test enough to require it of every breeding.

Well, this is where you and I differ a bit. You think that the people admining the breed tests are all corrupt and just pass dogs through. I am not quite as cynical as you ;), and think that they serve their place. I do beleive in them as they have been used for years and for the most part work and weed out the undesireables...every system is flawed though and I am sure a few fall through the cracks. Frankly I think TWO breed tests should be required by different judges, on different days in different venues should be required. And in the current climate of BSL legislation, breed testing is not necessarily a bad thing.

I agree fully on the health tests that you propose, but again, remember, like your objection to the breed tests, a helath tests is only as good as the person administering it. :(

So in toto, I am not saying that the Germans are the end all and be all. But frankly, they have a system that works so they must be doing something right. They produce good, consistent, balanced dogs that we all want to get our hands on and are paying top dollar for! So we should not be so quick to dismiss them and their systems and their requirements. We could learn a lot from them. And if we did, and cracked down here and started producing consistent, quality dogs, I think you would see the Germans striving to import our dogs!

Thats all I was saying! :)

[godfreyc]

What's the NRA's battle cry "From my cold dead hands" if someone wants to start telling me what I can and can't do, I don't care if it's dogs or sex life or yard maintenance, you're gonna have a heck of a time. Why is it that right wing conservatives don't want gay marriage? Because, in their opinion it opens a flood gate. Well that's how I feel about all of this. The first "law" even though that's not what a law is for, that goes into place opens a flood gate. First well you can't breed because your dog didn't pass a test and then next thing you know it's "You can't own a rottie because of your social status".

[samanthac]

The first "law" even though that's not what a law is for, that goes into place opens a flood gate. First well you can't breed because your dog didn't pass a test and then next thing you know it's "You can't own a rottie because of your social status".

Its not a law in Germany either. No one said anything about any laws. Its a requirement plain and simple. But people follow it because they know that they cannot show, compete or register their litters/dogs in Germany if they don't abide by the ADRK club requirements.

What's the big freaking deal? We already have that here...its called the AKC. Granted some people have decided that they don't like the rules, so they took their toys and played elesewhere...UKC, ARV, USRC, DVG, USA, AWDF. But the bottom line is that all dogs regardless of venue still must be registered with the AKC or ADRK to even 'play' with these clubs.

We are just not as rigorous as the ADRK. Maybe if we were we would be producing even better dogs than the Germans...god knows we have more money and resources to do it. After all is it about my 'right to produce any kind of dog I please' or the ability to produce dogs that exceed the standard every time? What do you think is better for the breed? And, I mean that IS what it is about, what is best for the breed, right?

[nick teifke]

Originally posted by samanthac

What's the big freaking deal? We already have that here...its called the AKC. Granted some people have decided that they don't like the rules, so they took their toys and played elesewhere...UKC, ARV, USRC, DVG, USA, AWDF. But the bottom line is that all dogs regardless of venue still must be registered with the AKC or ADRK to even 'play' with these clubs.

Your dog does not need to be registered with AKC to participate in SchH trials.