Breeders and hips....

[poohbearsmom]

Just curious.....

Breeders:
Do you request/require in your contract that all pups produced by you have hips xrayed either with a prelim at 12mos, or at the age of 2, whether the pup was sold as companion, or as a show prospect? Do you keep the results for your own records? Do you require that all pups pics get sent to OFA, regardless of a good/bad outcome?

Do you feel that asking this of puppy buyers is an encroachment on them?


Buyers:
If a breeder required that hip xrays are taken at 12mos, and/or 2 years, would this affect your decision to buy a puppy from them? If so, why?

Is this an expense you'd be willing to handle on your own, simply because YOU, as a buyer now know what the inside of your dog looks like, and it gives you an idea of how to handle it's health as time goes by? Would you be more likely to comply, if the breeder split the cost of the xray, or refunded you a small amount of money when the xray was done, and the breeder received the results?

Thanks for your time....

Elisabeth

[DNeff]

My breeder did not require hips and elbows to be x-rayed on Riven since I bought him on limited registration. I did have x-rays done at about a year and then I had his hips and elbows OFA'd at 3 years. I let his breeder know the results so she would have more data for her breeding program.

I paid for all the x-rays and would not expect my breeder to share the cost. Since I compete with my dog, I feel it's my duty to know what he has going on inside. Riven's hips are OFA good and one elbow is clear the other is Grade I DJD.

Riven's DJD elbow has never shown any problems, but I have kept him on Glyco-Flex II since I found out as a preventative. To me, knowing his elbow may be an issue has been a huge plus. I would much rather be fore warned than find out when/if he came up lame.

As a buyer, I would not mind in the least if the breeder required the x-rays, and I payed the whole expense. To me, that's part of my duty as a responsible rottie owner.

I think the small refund is a good idea once they have completed the x-rays. For me it wouldn't make too much difference, but it might for the average pet owner.

Dawn
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CDX OAC OJC OGC NA NAJ TT CGC
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[frontierrots]

I ask that hips and hearts be done at 2 years
I rebate $100 for hips and $100 for heart

I keep a record of all results, good or bad. How else will I know what I am producing??

[rottsnroses]

Max's breeder requested that we have hip/elbow x-rays done, but did not require it in the contract. Regardless, we will have Max x-rayed for our own peace of mind, to help determine the path we will take regarding his future, and we will be glad to share the results with the breeder.

That being said, in looking at it in a general sense, if the pup being sold is pet quality with limited registration and a spay/neuter requirement, I can see why the breeder would be interested in having this information for their records, but I think it would be unreasonable to expect the owner of such a pup to bear this expense on their own. If the breeder really wants this info on a pet quality pup and the owner has furnished proof of neuter/spay, then IMHO the breeder should bear the expense.

On the flipside, a pup that is sold as show or working quality with full registration should require x-rays and OFA/Penn Hip registration. If one is buying a show or working quality pup, to me, that indicates the intent that the dog will be more than just a companion, in which case it should be required since it is possible the dog could be bred in the future. If I were buying a pup as show or working quality, I would have no problem whatsoever bearing the expense myself, sharing the results with the breeder, and having co-ownership with the breeder until the contract requirements were fulfilled.

[moondog]

From the buyers side, a requirement to have hip xrays done would indeed affect my decision whether to buy a puppy from them.........I would be more likely to!

A breeder who shows concern for the health, temperament, and future of the puppies they produce and maintains records for them would give me a great deal of confidence in them.

I wouldn't refuse a refund for the cost, but I would be perfectly willing to pick up the cost myself and would not expect the breeder to "purchase" that information from me by offering incentives to do so. I would want them to have that info. :)

[poohbearsmom]

Hope I hear from more of you....

Ok, let's take this one even a little deeper.... This question, also posed to both breeders and buyers:

If a stud dog owner were to request/require hip information, for their records of all pups said studly produces, or, to go a step further, request that all pups produced from their dog have xrays sent to OFA at the age of 2, as a breeding requirement, would this affect your choice of breeding to said stud dog, or buying pups from a breeder, who's choice of stud dog requires this????

Looking forward to your replies.... :)


Elisabeth

[Homerhomer]

Originally posted by moondog
From the buyers side, a requirement to have hip xrays done would indeed affect my decision whether to buy a puppy from them.........I would be more likely to!

A breeder who shows concern for the health, temperament, and future of the puppies they produce and maintains records for them would give me a great deal of confidence in them.

I wouldn't refuse a refund for the cost, but I would be perfectly willing to pick up the cost myself and would not expect the breeder to "purchase" that information from me by offering incentives to do so. I would want them to have that info. :)

exactly my thoughts.

[Carina43]

Originally posted by rottsnroses
Max's breeder requested that we have hip/elbow x-rays done, but did not require it in the contract.

Same here, with Cooper - also with a limited registration because of his coat.
I did get them xrayed at MSU in January when he's just turned two...they were looking at his elbows & also did hips. Nothing reported to OFA - they just said his hip joints looked very sound, and I relayed that info to his breeder.

It absolutely would not affect my decision, should I purchase another puppy, and I'd bear the cost since that seems to be somewhat standard. I'd be happy I was buying a puppy from someone who cared enough to keep track of these things!

[Bruce Lanthier]

The more tests required/done on a puppy's parentage+ would influence me to get a puppy from that breeder. There is no downside to health tests and if they are used extensively in the breeding program, even better.

I think the cost should be borne equally though. If the breeder requires specific tests it should be split equitably. Both people benefit.

I would not have tests done unless required or I thought they were needed though.

[damp]

Originally posted by moondog
From the buyers side, a requirement to have hip xrays done would indeed affect my decision whether to buy a puppy from them.........I would be more likely to!

A breeder who shows concern for the health, temperament, and future of the puppies they produce and maintains records for them would give me a great deal of confidence in them.

I agree!!!

Here… if you have your dog x-rayed your vet will ask, if he shall send the pictures to DKK (the Danish Kennel Club) If not, well your dog is X-rayed, but you can’t have the result signed on your dog’s papers... ONLY if the pictures are judged by DKK the x-ray of hips/elbows will count and also be publish available.

Yes, I have heard breeders say, if your vet finds your dog has HD, you don’t need to send the pictures to DDK.

I also find it very strange, (a guesstimate) that about 99 out of 100 breeding animals here either have elbows free or are not x-rayed. I am sure that number will dramatically change, now when it’s required, that elbows must be X rayed before breeding.

I think I am trying to say: The more you know about your dog’s offspring and are willing to share… good or BAD… will only be for the betterment of our breed!

[rottsnroses]

I think the more information the better. While hip and elbow ratings on several generations in a pups pedigree is normally provided from a good breeder or by doing some research, having information on the littermates and offspring in a pup's pedigree for several generations back would be even better.

What if OFA or Penn Hip took all this data and analyzed it in such a way that it would be possible to determine the propensity for heritable HD and ED in a given pedigree or a proposed pairing? Although I can't imagine that they haven't already considered this, would it not be useful to breeders to have a tool where you could input a proposed pairing and come out with a score predicting the likelihood of HD and ED and other heritable diseases?

[BostonRott]

All my puppies are required to have hips/elbows done, regardless of how the puppy was placed. Owners get a $100 rebate upon proof of OFA, pass or fail. ALL results must be submitted to OFA.

As I also want to know about hearts and eyes, I paid for the stud of my A litter to have his heart cleared by a cardiologist and his eyes by a opthmologist, both board certified.

Without health, why bother??

[LynnS]

Moondog expressed my thoughts perfectly :D

[sophie's-mom]

Originally posted by poohbearsmom
If a stud dog owner were to request/require hip information, for their records of all pups said studly produces, or, to go a step further, request that all pups produced from their dog have xrays sent to OFA at the age of 2, as a breeding requirement, would this affect your choice of breeding to said stud dog, or buying pups from a breeder, who's choice of stud dog requires this????

In my opinion, this is the only way to go, really. I mean, if a dog produces 20 puppies in a lifetime, and say ONE FOURTH of those dogs are used for breeding, 3 males/2 females, then it would only be right to know EXACTLY what this line is producing as far as hips and elbows go, GOOD OR BAD. Of the original 20 dogs say 4 were mild, 2 were moderate, 7 were FAIR, 5 were good and 2 were excellent. NOW, knowing ALL OF THIS would definitely make a difference in deciding which lines to breed against. Even though only 5 dogs are producing from the original sire or dam, with the majority of the dogs produced being FAIR, I would think that should be taken into consideration when you've got two possible bitches or dogs that are alike, for the most part. Shouldn't it?

If I had a bitch and the stud owner required that all the puppies produced be OFAd would I stay or walk away? I'd choose that stud dog over another for two reasons. 1) I know that I would be able to find out what that dog has produced before 2) that this breeder ACTUALLY cares about what they're putting out there.

Sure it's more work, you have to make phone calls and hound some people to get this done, but I would think it's MORE than required if you choose to create life.

That's my opinion.

[Michele Baxter]

I absolutely want to know the hip ratings of pet puppies as well as show/breeding quality puppies. As Diane said, how else do you know what you've produced.

As the owner of a bitch, when I look at a Stud Dog, I not only want to know what his Hip rating was, I want to know what his Littermates ratings were----as you may have a very nice Stud dog, but his siblings are carrying similar genetic combinations as him. Let's say Stud dog's litter had 8 puppies, 4 sold as pets----well, that's 50% of your results---knowing what was produced in this particular Stud Dog's litter will give you a clearer picture of what he might possibly throw.
I definitely keep track of what my bitch's littermates received in their OFA ratings. I want to know what her history is as well. People sometimes focus on only the Stud dog and Brood Bitch, when they need to understand and look at sire/dam's littermates also in their decisions.
That's why it's sometimes as hard as it is-----people aren't always on the up and up about genetic problems in their lines, and it's a shame. I think all you can do is your best and definitely knowing about each and every dog you produce is essential to continue a breeding program.