About "agree" to neuter contracts for pus and fees..

[girlunderainbow]

Trying to decide upon correct adoption fee's for rottie mix puppies. Mom's rottie..one of dads may have been. More on these guys in rescue and Chit Chat..
anyway...what I'm trying to decide is whether to charge a higher adoption fee and hold a certain amount of it..in an account..and in the contract, in addition to them agreeing to neuter the pup at 6 mos..agree that I will pay that said amount to the vet toward the neuter. OR charge a lower fee and not put any of it toward the neuter.

[rott60827]

Better yet, don't fool around and get these little ones altered before placement. That way you won't have to worry that one will slip through the cracks.
As for your placement fees. I realize that you are doing this on your own, but don't you also volunteer for a shelter/rescue? What fee do they charge for their pups? I would say that most rescues ask at least $150.00 even if the pups are not pure.

[girlunderainbow]

Yes, I am an active board member of a rescue group but it only charges $60 for dogs.
Whether or not its OK to neuter at such a young age is debateable..and thus far I don't feel comfortable with it.

[rottie_mama]

The only way to be sure these puppies never produce another unwanted litters of puppies is to spay/neuter all dogs prior to placement. In your other thread in the rescue forum (which is probably where this one should be as well), you were worried about people questioning the validity of your rescue. If you don't spay/neuter prior to placement they are going to have lots of questions. (Or at least I would.) Our shelter places dogs on spay/neuter contracts, and it's amazing how many of the dogs 'run away' are 'stolen' or in some other way disappear just a few days before their spay/neuter date - the cost of which was included in their adoption fee. Mere coincidence?? I think not! The longer I am in rescue the less I trust people to do the right thing. Momma said if you want a job done right you've gotta do it yourself.

There are a lot of theories surrounding juvenile spay/neuter. As a person who has had almost a dozen of my personal foster pups spayed/neutered prior to 4 months of age without a single incident I'd HIGHLY recommend it. The pups recover quickly, and then you don't have to worry about following up and harassing people on the spay/neuter portion of your contract. Here are a few links that provide more information about the procedure and how it affects young animals:

http://www.bestfriends.org/nmhp/prin...spayneuter.pdf
http://www.cvm.uiuc.edu/ceps/IVB/spay-neu.htm
http://www.petorphans.com/earlyneut/earlyneut.html
http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/PedSpayNeuter.htm
http://www.danesonline.com/earlyspayneuter.htm

The negative stereotypes of juvenile spay/neuters are dissipating and more and more vets are willing to perform the procedure (in fact, they're teaching juvenile spay/neuters in vet schools across the country!) with the exception of some old-timers who insist on clinging to the old 6-month rule of thumb.

Check with some of your local rescues and shelters to see if they can recommend a good vet who will do the surgeries for you. Heck, maybe you can even get a group discount. :)

Rachel

[AngelBunny]

girlunderainbow:

NERR, the rescue group for which I vol, doesn't place any dog--regardless of age--prior to being spayed or neutered. That goes for puppies, too.

Bona fide rescue groups would never do anything that might contribute to the awful problem of pet overpopulation.

Spay or neuter any dog before you place it.

[mmgy]

I agree with you about them being awfully young to neuter, but...

If it were my puppy, no, I wouldn't do it at that age.

BUT, remember that you're dealing with rescued mixed dogs, and if early neutering is the ONLY way to GUARANTEE that the cycle is not perpetuated, then bite the bullet and do it. Be thankful that you've been given the opportunity to have this impact on their lives.

Sometimes you have to take your heart out of the situation and choose for the greater good. I think this is one of those times, and I'll be crossing my fingers for you!

M2

[RottiMomCT]

girlunderrainbow:

What is the RESCUE GROUP policy on placing intact dogs??

To fully, 100% GUARANTEE that they will NEVER be responsible for adding more puppies to the world they should be spayed/neutered prior to placement.

Can't use your heart in this one...gotta use your head ;)

[Judi W]

I would also suggest that with mongrels they be desexed before leaving your home or there will be another generation on the way because the "dog got out" or the spay neuter truck didn't come on time.................

You have no way of knowing where these dogs are really going to end up after they leave you.

[girlunderainbow]

However this was not my question. At this point and time, my long term vet who is very experienced and who's opinion I trust..DOES NOT do early neuters. Period. He does not believe it is a wise idea. And, until I see strong suggestions..medically...to suggest there are no extra risks/problems later on...I will not do it.
Our group policy is that adult dogs/cats are neutered prior to being placed...those under 6 mos..the contract stipulates that they must be neutered by 6mos...the whole adoption fee goes toward it at the participating vets in our small town..and if they fail to do so we get the dog/cat back. There are a few other stipulations under this section in addition to the neutering one..that they must adhere to or we get the animal back. I will speak with other vets in this area and one mobile vet that comes to this area...
But so far I have not been impressed whatsoever with any of the others here..and do not value their knowledge as much as my vets.

[spidey]

And, until I see strong suggestions..medically...to suggest there are no extra risks/problems later on...I will not do it.

Read the Unviersity of Illinois link rottie_mama provided above (http://www.cvm.uiuc.edu/ceps/IVB/spay-neu.htm).

"Many aspects of skeletal dimensions, body weight and composition, physical maturation, secondary sex characteristics or behavioral development of cats (6) and dogs (11,13) neutered/spayed in the two groups were compared at one year of age. The only notable difference found was that the animals neutered at 6 to 7 weeks of age were more likely to have immature external genitalia at maturity; this has no known clinical significance (6,8,11). The benefits of neutering are the same at either age: reduced risk of reproductive disorders and of mammary neoplasia."

"These studies indicate that early spays benefit the animal, the owner, animal population control, and you, the veterinarian. The animal benefits because the anesthesia is fast and uneventful; surgical procedure is well tolerated and animals recover faster"

IMO the priority here is to ensure that these puppies don't breed. Since you likely don't intend to keep them until the traditional spay/neuter age of 6 months, and since (from the above site):

AVMA supports the concept of early (8-16 weeks of age) ovariohysterectomies/gonadectomies in dogs and cats, in an effort to stem the overpopulation problem in these species

I think any potential risks are far outweighed by the benefit of knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that these puppies will never reproduce. This is what a responsible rescue group would do, rather than adopting them out on a spay/neuter contract (to answer your question more directly: most rescue groups don't bother with spay/neuter contracts these days, they spay or neuter before they adopt the animal out, even very young puppies, and this is supported by the AVMA).

Even good vets may not be 100% conversant with all the current research in all areas (there are only so many hours in a day) - so unless your vet specialises in rescues and that sort of thing, he may not have had any reason to research the current thinking about pediatric spays and neuters. IME even good vets often adhere to the thinking they were taught, or the thinking they last read up on, and that thinking may no longer be reflective of the more current research. There is also the issue of priority - if these were your pets, there might not be any reason to fix them this early, but they're not your pets, they're puppies whose mother your kindly rescued, and who you intend to adopt out. The priority probably shouldn't be what you'd do for your own pet, but what the right thing to do for the situation is.

I realize this may sound like I'm lecturing, and I really don't intend to. I admire what you've done for these dogs, and I know you want to do what's best for them.

[TrinityRun]

Originally posted by girlunderainbow
Trying to decide upon correct adoption fee's for rottie mix puppies. Mom's rottie..one of dads may have been. More on these guys in rescue and Chit Chat..
anyway...what I'm trying to decide is whether to charge a higher adoption fee and hold a certain amount of it..in an account..and in the contract, in addition to them agreeing to neuter the pup at 6 mos..agree that I will pay that said amount to the vet toward the neuter. OR charge a lower fee and not put any of it toward the neuter.

Ethically, you spay and neuter the pups before they are allowed to be adopted out. People who are serious about adopting one will understand completely and willingly comply.

A vet may well offer you a discount on the surgeries as you have several to do. The adoption fee should be the same for all the puppies across the board because their value is the same. They are all just pets. $100 fee to adopt should cover the cost of their medical expenses. I would not dock their tails - no matter what they look like because again, they are litter of mix breed pups.

As has been stated, many vets have no problem spaying and neutering at an earlier age. While I understand your veterinarians right to his opinion, (although I feel it's archaic) he should respect your choice to take them to a vet who will do the early surgery. Why? Because the importance of having them altered before being placed in their new homes takes precedence. The sooner they can be placed with their new family, the better.

So it's simple. Either you have them spayed and neutered early on - or you keep them until they are at an age you feel comfortable doing it. To "rescue" dogs and then turn around and place them before they are spayed or neutered is simply irresponsible - no matter how extensive the intereviews, how detailed the contract, how much of a fee has been charged and no matter how sincere your best intentions. The fact of the matter is if people want something bad enough they will "yes" you to death...promise you everything under the sun and then - do whatever they want once they get the dog.

To do something right - you have to do it yourself and this is never more true than in rescue. When you choose to rescue, you choose to do what is right by everyone - especially the dogs. That means mandatory spaying and neutering of all dogs *before* they ever leave your possession. Period.

[alexav]

Consider this: If just ONE of the puppies you place has a litter of average size, and that owner is not responsible for placing the pups in spay/neuter homes and each of those puppies produces just one litter of average size...and each of those puppies....

Do the math. It's positively frightening!:(

You would need an IRON CLAD agreement that all of them are spayed or neutered by 6 months, however, in many years of rescue I have found that some people will not follow the agreements I have in my contracts, such as housing, food, training, and if they need to get rid of the dog it WILL be returned to me and not be sold or relinquished to a shelter. People move and leave no forwarding address. People claim "the dog ran away." People say "Oh, we just couldn't handle him anymore so we gave him to my husband's brother's wife's sister in law's friend's husband who lives somewhere on a farm." Believe me, I've heard it all!

If you know where the dog is, you can threaten to/ or take it back but that is the only recourse you have if they break the contract. You can't sue them after you find out that the pup froze to death because they put it outside without any shelter, you can't have them put in jail because they decided that taping the dogs face with duct tape was a good way to keep it from barking and chewing, and you can't take the dog back when it is already pregnant if you don't know who they "gave" it to.

Sorry to be so blunt and depressing, but that's just the way things are...

[girlunderainbow]

As far as the tails, I had the two Rottie marked pups docked yesterday as they may turn out to be mostly Rottweiler. Also, someone who may take the rottie female pup asked that it be docked. Like I said..the people that had her ..apparently when she was in heat..had a male Rottweiler. The one's that had back dewclaws I cut. So this is done.
I understand what you are saying spidey..I contacted the group I am with..the prez and another fellow board member who deal with our low cost/sometimes free neutering programs..to see if there is anyway I can work something out that way. And asked who does do early neuters here. Tues. I am off of work and will be calling the vets here myself..to speak with someone from each clinic regarding possible options.
TrinityRun, please do not resort to saying I am irresponsible when you do not know me nor the entire situation of the mother dog. I "rescued" her because she was running loose near a highway everyday when she got out..was only to be used by them for BYB anyway..and there was NO ONE else to take her on. PERIOD. I am trying as hard as I can to take care of mom and pups.

Alexav..
I don't need to do the math..I have stats right in front of me. I know how fast dogs/cats multiply..how many were surrendered..aprox..to shelters in Tx last year (at least reported)..how many found homes..and how many were euthanized. I know people will "agree to everything" just to get what they decide the want. And, I have been a volunteer, member, and now board member of rescue..as well as a vet tech before that dealing with the public daily..all of which have enabled me to fully understand the way things are. I know it is blunt and depressing.

[Roscoe's dad]

Originally posted by mmgy
I agree with you about them being awfully young to neuter, but...

If it were my puppy, no, I wouldn't do it at that age.

BUT, remember that you're dealing with rescued mixed dogs, and if early neutering is the ONLY way to GUARANTEE that the cycle is not perpetuated, then bite the bullet and do it. Be thankful that you've been given the opportunity to have this impact on their lives.

Sometimes you have to take your heart out of the situation and choose for the greater good. I think this is one of those times, and I'll be crossing my fingers for you!

M2

I sort of agree here to. If it was my puppy I would probably wait until it was at least time to get the last set of puppy shots befor I spayed or neutered. If I was performing a rescue and place operation, no dog would leave my property unless they were altered.
They may promise no breeding and mean it but accidents seem to always happen.

[spidey]

TrinityRun, please do not resort to saying I am irresponsible when you do not know me nor the entire situation of the mother dog.

I can't speak for TrinityRun, but it didn't seem to me that she was calling you irresponsible, she was saying that letting the puppies go without spaying and neutering them would be irresponsible in a rescue situation like this (the mother's situation doesn't have much to do with whether or not the pups should be fixed before placement). Since you still have the puppies, she was speaking hypothetically and/or generally.

You helped this dog out, no question, you probably saved her life, and now you're helping her puppies, I very much doubt that anyone here would fault or criticize you for that. You've done a great job for these dogs so far, I think the people here with current rescue experience are just trying to give you enough information to help you finish the job properly. :)