Breeding Rotties

[PEA]

I'm not interested in breeding Rotties for a number of reasons but I have often wondered if Rotties could be breed for something other than showing in the conformance ring? I'm thinking along the lines of obedience, agility or as companion dogs?

Please don't flame me, I'm not suggesting some Backyard Breeder do this but rather someone who is dedicated to Rotties do this to improve the breed in one or all of the above areas. If someone wanted to do this what suggestions or objections would you give?

[kala]

A good bred Rott is bred for conformation, working ability, temerament (companionship) and can do all of what you are thinking. The reputable breeders do breed for a well rounded dog and that is very important for our chosen breed. As in anything, one dog might be better in one area than others, but look through the working and showing forums on this site and you will see dogs that have titles before and after their names. Those are the dogs that show just how versitile this breed is.
sue

[alexav]

No need to specialize!

A nicely bred, healthy Rottie should be the ultimate versitility machine! Herding, tracking, Schutz, Obedience, Agility, and even Therapy work! (Did I leave anything out?)

Oh, yeah...The noblest sport of all....Being a great family member!:D

[laurlitt]

Originally posted by alexav
No need to specialize!

A nicely bred, healthy Rottie should be the ultimate versitility machine! Herding, tracking, Schutz, Obedience, Agility, and even Therapy work! (Did I leave anything out?)

Oh, yeah...The noblest sport of all....Being a great family member!:D

In theory what you are saying is true... but in reality I disagree... Many of the reputable breeders that I know (or know of) do not breed a Rottweiler that has the drives to sustain them in a sport like Schutzhund (or even Herding or agility where lots of drives are necessary). It is very hard (IMO) to find a dog that meets both conformation and has the temperment/drives necessary for a Schutzhund dog.

There have been many discussions about American vs. German Rottweilers... I understand that in theory the standards are not different... but again (IMO) there is quite a difference in the type of dog you are getting between the two lines when it comes to temperment and drive.

Although I believe that a breeder should never compromise conformation, there is truly a need to 'specialize' in true working drives... The well rounded Rottweiler more times than not is probably lacking in the strong working drives, but may have nice conformation and therapy dog like temperment in exchange...

Just my 2 cents.

[DNeff]

I am blessed to have an incredibly well rounded rottie.

My breeder does focus on the conformation side in her breedings, however, her dogs also have outstanding work ethic and drives.
My breeder also has had the privilege of breeding the first AKC UDX rottie. However she is definitely breeding for great conformation dogs first and formost. But she has not lost sight of the importance of the working rottweiler.

Riven could have worked for his AKC CH and very likely gotten it, if I had the time and inclination. He also competes in Obedience, agility, herding, tracking and carting. The only reason I haven't been able to do serious schutzhund work with him is there are no clubs in the area for me to work with.

My herding instructor says he has some of the best natural ability she has ever seen in a rottie.

So yes it does happen, you can get a great looking/great working dog. The trick is to do your research and find a breeder that can produce that type of dog. I know of several, off the top of my head that have great conformation and great working dogs.

It is unfortunate that there are not more of them out there, but they are out there.

Dawn
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CDX OAC OGC NA NAJ NJC TT CGC
http://members.aol.com/dplantier
http://members.aol.com/rottweilerworld

[laurlitt]

Originally posted by DNeff
So yes it does happen, you can get a great looking/great working dog. The trick is to do your research and find a breeder that can produce that type of dog. I know of several, off the top of my head that have great conformation and great working dogs.

It is unfortunate that there are not more of them out there, but they are out there.

It sounds like you have a wonderful boy (and very well rounded)... It also helps to have someone as dedicated as you sound!!!!

[alexav]

Originally posted by alexav

A nicely bred, healthy Rottie should be the ultimate versitility machine!

Laurlitt,
I guess I should have made the word "SHOULD" in huge size. They SHOULD be, but alas, many are not.

I am one of the lucky ones that has an ultimate versitility machine all my own too. With more aggressive campaining and much more of a delay in spaying, she SHOULD have had titles at both ends.;) The health of the dog and performance titles were more important to me than finishing her CH. She does it all, and does it all very well. {{{Brag, brag, brag.}}} :D

[laurlitt]

My thought process on this was that even though a well bred rott 'SHOULD' be versatile, most of them aren't... so if someone wants a great working dog, most likely they are going to have to go to someone who 'specializes' in working lines... Even if every breeder DOES aim for the well rounded rottweiler I think a lot of the working capabilities will be lost in the process...

Note: My preference of a good working dog is one who can handle the pressure of schutzhund (i.e. protection) and even though there are lots of great working dogs (obedience, tracking, herding, agility, etc....) most of these dogs couldn't handle the pressure (i.e. threat from the bad guy)... and most owners don't realize this about their dog unless put in the situation. It's just one of the things that gets lost in the shuffle of looking for that well rounded Rottweiler... This is not meant to be a criticism of any of the well rounded working dogs... just a preference of mine and many others looking for a schutzhund dog.... I'll also add that if someone is looking for a true protection dog... even some of the dogs who could handle Sch... might not make it as a protection dog....

I guess it's all in what you're looking for!

Brag all you want.... :) I'll listen!!!... I'm constantly finding reasons to brag... and my girl is only 7 months!!!

Regards,
Laurie

[alexav]

You've brought up some very valid points, Laurie, and I am thoroughly enjoying the exchange of opinions here.
I guess I just don't like the idea of compromising on one quality to double the chances of another.

If PATs are done carefully and wisely, great prospects for any sport can be found in alot of well-bred "show litters". The variance in drives and temperments within a single litter never ceases to amaze me.

If I am picking a pup for me, I will pick working ability and confidence over a perfect topline or super dark eyes any day of the week and yes, I will test a few litters before I find that certain PP prospect but I believe that I will find just what I need and just what my first time Rottie owner friend needs too.

If one is breeding without the total Rottie in mind, whether it's for show or for Schutzhund, I think it's a little sad. Those pretty pups that have little working ability that don't quite stack up for the major wins, have limited futures as do the not so pretty pups that didn't get the drives and confidence they were "specially" bred for.

JMO...and just in case you were wondering, Yes, I do have a pair of rose colored glasses.;) :D

[TrishB]

There is an inherent danger in 'specializing' in a single venue.

For the perfect example, look at today's American Quarter Horse. This breed is toted as "the world's most versatile horse". At one time, they were!

However, they've now been specialized. There are "English" lines (meaning the style of riding, not from England), "Western" lines, Conformation lines.... If you stand one horse from each of these groups beside each other, you'd be hard pressed to say that all 3 were the same breed. :( There are very few truly "versatile" or "all-round" horses.

Rottie breeders need to ensure that they're breeding for the total picture. Conformation is key - if they aren't built properly, they won't be able to complete the work. If they don't have the drives, they won't want to work.

If we want to keep our versatile breed, we need to breed for versatility! ;)

[laurlitt]

Originally posted by TrishB
There is an inherent danger in 'specializing' in a single venue.

I can assure you that any of the breeders that breed for strong working lines aren't leaving out conformation... There is a standard that must be met, but it is more likely that these dogs will not knock the judges dead w/ beauty but may knock a helper down in a trial.

I'm thinking that some of the breeders that I'm thinking of who are COE breeders may be targeting more for show ring and soft temperments, but are not so concerned w/ drives... these are the ethical breeders that concern me... They are producing nice dogs w/ nice conformation, but can't do much else.

I know where to go to get the kind of dog I want and I just hope that these options continue to be available to me for years to come...

I think we all have the same opinions here.

[TrishB]

Originally posted by laurlitt
I can assure you that any of the breeders that breed for strong working lines aren't leaving out conformation... There is a standard that must be met, but it is more likely that these dogs will not knock the judges dead w/ beauty but may knock a helper down in a trial.

At the same time, I think that choosing one discipline at the standard trait to which the others have to be measured by must be done so carefully. Why should schutzhund be the standard?

I ask that not for the direct answer, but to propose my idea. If you emphasize the 'strong working lines', why should it sacrifice the noble expression or markings? Why does the ability to do schutzhund have more weight than herding ability (for example)?

The reason I say that is that I've seen what has happened to the American Quarter Horse. There are horses that have been bred specifically for their 'cow sense'. This would be the equivalent to the working drives sought after by Schutzhund groups. These horses although have a superior working ability, often lack in size, look, shape and conformation. These horses too, when stood beside the other groups I mentioned before - would look again like 4 different breeds of horse rather than the same.

I suggest that even focusing on a temperament requirement, is just as dangerous as only focusing on conformation, herding ability, therapy work, etc.

We need to ensure that we're looking at the overall dog, in ALL aspects. Or we too, will develop sub-breeds within our own. We need to avoid that at all costs. Personally, I would have a problem in having a great Rottweiler schutzhund dog, which was missing markings, the build, or the classic head. If someone would have to ask me what breed it was or if it was a Rottie cross - what good is that doing for the breed?

I'm being devil's advocate here - but it's a point worth considering.

[laurlitt]

Again, I will assure you that a dog bred for these strong working drives are also bred for conformation. There is no strong divergance in look of these dogs. The markings and noble expression are still the same and just as beautiful, the heads are the same... the height standard is the same, eye color, everything... So I think comparing to your Horse example is not appropriate.

Also, a dog bred to maintain the working drives and temperment of a Rottweiler that meets present day Schutzhund needs is also a dog that can do obedience, agility, herding, tracking, carting, etc... It's not just a dog who can run blinds and do bark and holds... (It's not usually the case that a herding/carting/agility dog can do Sch.). So the way I see it... a dog capable of schutzhund is more a complete/versatile rottweiler encompassing all of the desired qualities of a good working rottweiler and should be the type of Rottweiler that is continued to be bred...

[Sansano]

Originally posted by laurlitt


Also, a dog bred to maintain the working drives and temperament of a Rottweiler that meets present day Schutzhund needs is also a dog that can do obedience, agility, herding, tracking, carting, etc...

People seem to always forget that Schutzhund is NOT just protection work. Obedience AND tracking are also part of it. So a dog that excels in the sport of schutzhund is a versatile dog just in that alone.

[TrishB]

Originally posted by Sansano
People seem to always forget that Schutzhund is NOT just protection work. Obedience AND tracking are also part of it. So a dog that excels in the sport of schutzhund is a versatile dog just in that alone.

Good point.

I'm talking in generalities, not specifics. Simply that any single focus can present a danger of compromising other traits.