What constitutes a REPUTABLE/ETHICAL breeder?

[sophie's-mom]

OK, now we all have our opinions as to which breeders we THINK are "good" or "bad" but what would your actual CRITERIA be for determining such? I mean, you could be in contact with a breeder and they do EVERYTHING that complies with certain club's "code of ethics" and still be shady, right? I mean, maybe they DO show their dogs regularly, but if it takes 4 years to finish that dog, should it be bred? OK, different scenario, what if the only titles on the dog are WORKING titles and the dog is ugly (perception, I know), should THAT dog be bred? OR what if they Show their dogs, have conformation points, etc. on their dogs and the dogs are nice looking, but the breeder ALWAYS has puppies, is that ethical? How many litters per year would a breeder have to have for you to NOT want a puppy from them. What about a breeder that sells ALL the puppies as SHOW QUALITY, is that possible?

Sorry, a bit off track there, my question is..........IF a breeder adheres to all the "minimum" (because that's what they are) requirements of their club's code and still breeds in ways that could be considered questionable, are they ETHICAL, not just technically speaking?

[frontierrots]

My personal definition

The person breeds dogs that

Are good looking per the standard and per accepted tradition

pass both hip and heart clearances

have great temperaments

are sound of mind and of body

are easily trainable

not weenies or overly domineering

The person

researches the pedigrees of both parents before breeding

assists buyers and potential buyers with all questions and problems

is supportive of their puppy buyers for the life of the dog

will take back any and every dog they produce when needed

keeps in contact with buyers for the life of the dog

Is knowledgable of dog behavior, training methods and the breed in general

does not breed more than 3 litters a year and does not have more than 5 actual breeding dogs-not total dogs but breeding dogs

socializes and works with their puppies to enable the puppy to be the best it can be

And NO ,signing a clubcode of ethics and/or showing often does automatically not make a person a good breeder


There's more but those are the basics of what "I" believe makes a good breeder

[BostonRott]

Yep, what she said! :D

I also look for a breeder who is willing to discuss both the strong and weak points of their dogs. If a breeder paints everything as rosy and won't discuss problems, or redirects away from certain questions............buh bye!!

I want to know why they are breeding the litter, and "to better the breed" is a load of crap.

[k9mam]

Originally posted by frontierrots
Are good looking per the standard and per accepted tradition

have great temperaments

are sound of mind and of body

are easily trainable

not weenies or overly domineering

Would they need titles to prove that?

What are the minimum requirements of North American clubs? Links would be appreciated. :)

[k9mam]

Originally posted by sophies-mom
OK, now we all have our opinions as to which breeders we THINK are "good" or "bad" but what would your actual CRITERIA be for determining such?

Well, I don't know how to answer that question, but I can describe my ideal breeder.

- Proves their dogs before s/he breeds them. (Titles on both ends, prefferably includes a breed suitability test.) I like looking at pedigrees and being able to find reasons why the dogs were bred. I understand that titles aren't an 'end-all,' but they're certainly better than nothing. Health certifications also, of course.

- Plans each breeding well in advance and after much research. Always nicer if they meet the dog before deciding to breed to it.

- Is honest about what they have.

- Breeds as a hobby, maybe 1-5 litters a year.

- Has litters in the house and keeps them there until they leave. Devotes a lot of time to socialization.

- Has developed (or hopes to develop) a solid mother line.

- Health guarantees, doesn't require return of pup for replacements, clearly written extensive contract.

- Takes time to educate prospective puppy owners and remains in contact or availabe from the point of sale on. Is picky about who they sell their pups to. Has a waiting list.

- Has a thorough understanding of *true* Rottie temperament & structure and strives to produce it.

I'm sure I missed a thing or three.

:)

OK, re-read the post. About meeting minimum requirements:

I like a breeder that sets their own standards, and goes above and beyond any requirements set by a club.

[Judi W]

We all like a "total" dog. Breeders might have different things they concentrate in their breeding program and puppy shoppers have certain criteria. The breeder for you is the one who focuses upon the same attributes that you do.

I strongly agree that a refund or replacement without the return of the original puppy is to be desired. I don't agree that up to 5 litters a year is a "hobby" breeder. That seems pretty high to me. A hobby breeder should primarily be breeding for themselves and if you are looking for the same qualities you benefit by getting from that litter. If they are just cranking out up to 30 or 40 puppies a year hoping to get lucky in what they want, it isn't very selective.

[BostonRott]

Totally agreed Judi! I know how much time and work I put into my one litter last Summer. They were their own full time project, alongside of my job and maintaining the other two dogs. :)

I can't imagine doing more than one litter per year, that would be exhausting. Makes me wonder how much time is really spent with those puppies, how well they're socialized, etc.

[TrishB]

I like my breeder due to her honesty. She told me why these two dogs were being bred. She told me what she was hoping for. She told me the strengths and weaknesses of both and of my pup.

She didn't just sell puppies to homes to sell them. She matched them. ;) Parker was 12 weeks old when I got him. She wanted an obedience/show home for him and she waited until she found that home, Me! :D

She gave me several people to contact. I spoke to people that have past pups from her and one that had a littermate of Parkers. The openess was wonderful!

The health clearances are a given (heart, eyes, hips, elbows). I also like the idea that both parents not only have conformation titles, but working ones too. To work towards the total dog.

As others have said, the contract should also be open to discussion. I've heard of other breeders just having people sign without even allowing them to read it. I had mine for 2 weeks before I even met her. I asked her to alter it as I'm Canadian, so working towards an AKC title would have been a little tougher for me. I asked her to add "CKC title". We left the AKC reference on, as, you never know! But her main drive was to encourage trying to attain a title or two on him, which is what it says.

Meeting the parents is paramount. I wouldn't even consider getting a pup without meeting both. If I don't like the parents, what kind of pup will they create?

I also like people who show / work their own dogs. This is just a personal opinion - but if they work with them competitively, they'll know their dogs inside and out. They'll be better qualified to help you with your puppy.

Don't be in a rush. Take your time. Find out about the person. Make sure they're just as excited about you getting a pup as you are! You should feel like you're a part of an extended family, not a customer.

[sophie's-mom]

Let me see if I can clarify what I was looking for, and this is for opinions really, since I know what I, MYSELF, look for in a breeder.

- Has litters in the house and keeps them there until they leave. Devotes a lot of time to socialization.

Ok, that's good, but what if someone IS considered a "good" breeder but has puppies in the house YEAR ROUND and at times, more than ONE litter? Is that acceptable or would that raise flags in your mind?

pass both hip and heart clearances

Ok, but passing with a fair or good and then breeding two goods or a fair and a good, is that acceptable?

What about a breeder that breeds a bitch two cycles in a row, maybe the first didn't take or maybe there were only 2 pups born, is that acceptable?

What about a breeder that owns a stud out of TWO Champions (whose parents and grandparents are also champions) but doesn't show that dog, is that acceptable?

What about a breeder that only shows in German style shows, all dogs are "multi v rated" I'm familar with German style show ratings and I know that MULTI V means CRAP if the dog is CONSTANTLY V-4 rated. So, just because a dog is PLACED, does that make that dog/bitch the best suited for a breeding?

The reason I'm asking, I look at a LOT of Rottweiler Breeder web pages (I like to see what dogs are doing what) and I've got to admit, sometimes I wonder what the HECK is going through these people's mind!!

[Judi W]

None of it is that simple. Yes or no and then a conclusion. Doesn't work that way. Knowlege of the sibs and the entire family is what makes thoughtful breeding decisions not simply this rating to that rating and then ethical or not. Too simplistic . You might want to refer to Carmen Battalia's book on breeding better dogs. That is if you are interested in breeding. If you are interested in evaluating breeders, look at what they have produced, what they own (that includes the families, not just the individuals) and see if the stock meets your expectations.

Also, I hate to mention it and surprise people, but not all good breeders have web sites................ thus everything cannot be learned on the internet

[TrishB]

Originally posted by Judi W
Also, I hate to mention it and surprise people, but not all good breeders have web sites................ thus everything cannot be learned on the internet.

Nor do all good breeders that have websites, have GOOD websites! ;) They might be a great breeder, but their HTML knowledge may be sorely lacking (or have a tight budget and not have the money to spend to have one built).

So please don't turn off of a breeder (or on to one either) because of their beautiful or ugly website. It is only a contact venue - it isn't a representative of them or their dogs. ;) :D

[sophie's-mom]

Originally posted by Judi W
thus everything cannot be learned on the internet

True, very true, but if they're showing their dogs, they will be listed in the show results as either owner or breeder.

I have no intention of breeding any animal, I'm more concerned with rescue, I just love to follow what other dogs are doing.

You ARE right that it isn't that simple, and over think things a lot. I try not to be judgmental, especially since I do not have first had knowledge as to why some people do what they do, but sometimes I see or read something and automatically try to pick it apart. Character flaw :)

look at what they have produced, what they own (that includes the families, not just the individuals) and see if the stock meets your expectations.

I see what you're saying, but if I'm taking pictures and burn 30 rolls of film, I'm bound to come out with maybe 4 or 5 rolls of REALLY OUTSTANDING pictures......is that REALLY an indication of my photography skills?

[Judi W]

If I breed once every generation and have a quality litter each time.........................

You are referring to a frequent breeder which goes back to my comment regarding number of litters....

Look for consistency and don't just look at what is in the ring.

[k9mam]

Originally posted by Judi W
I don't agree that up to 5 litters a year is a "hobby" breeder. That seems pretty high to me.

It does, doesn't it? Let's say 1-3 then, and never more than one per bitch per year, and maybe not every bitch every year.

Boy this stuff can sure get technical. Can only imagine how it will be when I decide to apply what I've learned in 15-20yrs or so. :p

[k9mam]

Originally posted by sophies-mom

quote:
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- Has litters in the house and keeps them there until they leave. Devotes a lot of time to socialization.
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Ok, that's good, but what if someone IS considered a "good" breeder but has puppies in the house YEAR ROUND and at times, more than ONE litter? Is that acceptable or would that raise flags in your mind?

I also specified in my post that my 'ideal' breeder would be a 'hobby' breeder. Someone that has puppies year round does not qualify.

To me, a hobby breeder is someone that is passionate about their breed & producing dogs that exemplify the standard - in every aspect. This person will be trying to develop a line, and will only breed when the possibility to strengthen it arises.