breeding a relative....how close?

[Rottlva]

I've had a few thoughts and was wondering if those who breed could indulge me. I've seen mothers rejecting newborns because of health issues. If an animal... canine in this thread, is ready to be bred will she... or he for that matter pick and choose a realative that is a close realative (ie mother/brother) or do dogs prefer to reach out and breed a relative a bit further away.. (great-grandfather/great-granddaughter) Would a dog be able to sense that a breeding could create a genetic disease? Now... knowing that we have a say in who breeds who, our own dogs will never have to make this decision for themselves.

Taking things a step further, I have to assume that wolves will try to pick a mate outside of the pack?

I ask this simply because if an animal is smart enough to realize that a pup is unhealthy... couldn't she tell if a realative was to close and would possibly hurt the gene pool? Thinking upon this a bit further... I realized humans are pretty smart, and there are still some of us who prefer to interbreed....

Thanks!

[Grendl]

I'm no expert, but I think that dogs subscribe to the "whoever's available" philosophy of breeding. I do not believe that it would matter to the bitch who the available dog was, and it certainly would not matter to the dog. Wolves, I don't know.

[frontierrots]

Wolves always breed within their own pack. Wolf packs tend to be pretty inbred. Same thing with deer herds, mice and any other animal that lives within groups.

Dogs usually breed with whatever opposite sex is avail. Though on occasion a female will rebuff a male she has helped raise and is quite dominant over.

Animals have no sense of inbreeding . They just know that they "need" to reproduce.

That said though, my female Rottweilers if given a choice- would breed with a male Shiba Inu any day over a male Rottweiler I can't even begin to imagine what that would look like.

[Judi W]

If dogs were genetics specialists, we wouldn't have to turn our homes into armed camps when the girls are in. Dogs live in the here and now. A defective pup is here and now. Sex is here and now...........;)

[Rottlva]

Excellent answers!!! I feel enlightned!

I'm assuming wolves don't have a number of genetic diseases because thier lives are "survival of the fittest", and the genetically inferior ones never get to breed.

Thanks!

[TrinityRun]

Originally posted by Rottlva
Excellent answers!!! I feel enlightned!

I'm assuming wolves don't have a number of genetic diseases because thier lives are "survival of the fittest", and the genetically inferior ones never get to breed.

Thanks!

Mother Nature has a way of weeding out the weak - genetically and conformationally.

Only the strong survive isn't just a cliche'

[DarkstarrRotts]

Wolves always breed within their own pack. Wolf packs tend to be pretty inbred. Same thing with deer herds, mice and any other animal that lives within groups.

The only difference between the inbreeding that occurs in the wild and the inbreeding that occurs in our various breeds is the inbreeding in the wild remains localized. What I mean is, even though the individual members of a pack or herd are very inbred, the genetic diversity of the entire species remains rather high. Unlike our dogs, where linebreeding on a famous individual becomes a world wide event causing the genetic diversity of that breed to suffer. That is why Theresa and I can be a supporter of maintaining our breeds genetic diversity, but at the same time we practice linebreeding. We try to imitate mother nature and we linebreed on excellent dogs from less popular lines. It gives us a uniqueness to our lines and does not negatively impact our breeds over all genetic diversity.

Mother Nature has a way of weeding out the weak - genetically and conformationally.

This is so true. Mother nature is a far more ruthless culler of faults and weaknesses than any breeder and that is why species in the wild have less genetic garbage to deal with. If you breed, especially if you linebreed, you need to be ruthless in eliminating inferior progenies' capabilities to reproduce.

Here is a link to an article regarding the genetic diversity of our Rottweiler.
Genetic Diversity

Regards,
Steve

[Mattweiser]

Steve,

that was a very well thought out, and written article.

One question: the article seemed centered around the overal structure of the Rottweiler, there was no mention of working ability.

where do you, and your kennel stand on that issue?

[DarkstarrRotts]

Matt,

To begin with, to my knowledge there is no recorded documentation of Leo von Cannstatt's working ability or of any of the other Rottweilers of that time period. I spoke of physical traits because those could be readily seen from the photographs. The affect on our breed's genetic diversity includes the genetic components of his working ability. The article was not meant to be exclusionary.

As for our breeding program and our position on working ability, we believe the Rottweilers ability to work is important. Having said that, we have been in Rottweilers for over 25 years and this has been our observation. Most Rottweilers who compete in the Sieger shows who have working titles obtained them overseas. Maybe this due to the fact that in Germany they have a training field on almost every corner. I know we travel 2 hours one way to our training field. Through the years, our dogs have been titled in many venues including Schutzhund. At present, we are working a dog and a bitch toward their working titles. We show our dogs in the ARV, USRC and AKC. This makes for a very full plate. When our dogs are titled, they will be titled by us not someone else. Some people buy their competition dogs and some people produce their competition dogs. Our dogs are not imports. We are in our 8th generation of breeding Rottweilers. When we compete with a dog in working or conformation, we compete with a dog we have produced. It makes it a more rewarding but a harder game to play.

Now Matt, where do you and your kennel stand on this issue?

Regards,
Steve

[VillateV]

Originally posted by frontierrots
Wolves always breed within their own pack. Wolf packs tend to be pretty inbred. Same thing with deer herds, mice and any other animal that lives within groups.

Animals have no sense of inbreeding . They just know that they "need" to reproduce.

Only the dominant pair in a wolf pack breeds and most other wild canids follow a similar reproductive strategy. The resulting offspring are sexually subjugated until they strike off on their own and establish new packs. Every wild group living animal has strategies to avoid inbreeding.

The only reason inbreeding is becoming more prevelant in wildlife populations is because these animals no longer have a choice - they have been reduced to critically low numbers and they exist in isolated habitats.

Given options, animals definitely do have a sense of inbreeding and this has also been proven in laboratory tests.

[frontierrots]

Not true. In Wolves only the dominant pair breed yes. BUT if something happens to either the male or female the next in line of that sex takes the position and that wolf is always related.

In deer herds the young males are not allowed to breed but are allowed to stay in the territory as long as they are respectful. The dominant buck breeds all females in the area (females stay in their family group their whole life) this includes daughters, granddaughters etc. Until he dies. Then another young buck from the area- usually a relative- takes up the dominant breeding spot. That is why all the deer in each local area ( areas of 2-10 mile radius) have the same antler and facial conformation.

Mice, rats, rabbits, beaver, muskrats etc all breed with whatever mate is available in their area. (Beaver do normally kick out their 2 year old kids BUT if the pond or river system is large enough they don't go far and if a mate dies they will breed readily with a child)

Horses work along the same premise as deer do

Wild animals have NO clue about inbreeding at all. Numerous studies have proven this. Dogs and cats are no exception.

[VillateV]

And I suppose the term inbreeding depression is superfluous.

If inbreeding is such a viable breeding stategy then no animal would make the effort of finding a not so closely related mate - and clearly they do if they have the opportunity.

Your scenario's describe static animal populations that exist in a vacuum and you make the assumption that there is no tranfer or movement of individuals between different groups?

Dominant males in harem systems actively lure females from their rivals and they are not necessarily replaced by their sons!

Matriarchal societies like lions and elephants are serviced by semi nomadic males that compete with each other for access to breeding females and their 'turnover' rate is high.

Don't look to nature to justify man made domestic animals that pay a heavy price for our clever 'linebreeding'.

[Rottlva]

Originally posted by DarkstarrRotts


Here is a link to an article regarding the genetic diversity of our Rottweiler.
Genetic Diversity

Steve, what a well written article. The genetic bottlenecking that you described has obviously happened in other canine and equine breeds. This article should be viewed by all interested in breeding in hopes that our breed can continue to better itself.

Thank you for sharing this! Jessica

[Mattweiser]

Steve,

The article does come across a bit on the exclusive side (I believe you that it was not intended).

As for my stance on working ability, I don't think it is any mystery on this board. I believe that, when dealing with a working breed, the true working character is the first, and easily most important factor. I do, not have a "kennel", nor will I, until I can secure a noteworthy foundation dog. This dog must be extremely pre-potent in his working temperament and abilities. I will only be concerned with his confirmation, to the extent that he does not posses or throw any disqualifying flaws. Minor flaws, I can and will happily live with ;) .

In my opinion, no Rottweiler (or any working breed GSD, APBT, Malinois, Giant, BRT, Bouv, etc) should ever be bred if it cannot handle the mental and physical stressors of the work that they were designed for. To me, there can be no concession in this matter.

I see that you have bred one of your bitches to a dog from the Jeneck's kennel. Those dogs, from what I have heard, do a good job of representing the breed on the competition field.

I only posed this question to you, because after browsing through your kennel's web-site (nicely done btw, except the pedigree page, which is a little tough on the eyes ;) ) I saw zero mention of working titles in regards to your dogs. I am very happy to hear that you personally see to the training that your dogs do receive, more should follow that lead. I would be more excited to see working titles on your breeding stock, but who am I??

You appear to be a very knowledgeable and experienced breeder, in regards to the show ring. God knows the working world of Rottweilers could use your level of interest and devotion. My main point of angst is that there should not be a working side, and a show side. Any Rottweiler that is showed and finished should also be "capable" of performing a SchH I routine, or a BST/Korung. Yes, the alternate should also be true, but it typically is.


I do not intend for any of this to appear inflammatory, I am simply answering a direct question.

[spidey]

VillateV: there is a difference between exclusive long-term inbreeding with no outcrossing (that's when you get inbreeding depression, as the gene pool gets shallower) and just inbreeding from time to time. The reason males in harem societies like lions seek outside females likely has nothing to do with outcrossing and everything to do with an innate desire to breed with as many females as possible. Elephants will breed with their fathers and sons, it's just that the nature of their herd-forming excludes the males, so they're more likely to breed with strangers who they come across. Current thinking is that occasional inbreeding (even down to straight incest) is actually not harmful at all in healthy individuals (including people, for that matter, as unacceptable as that is in our society), as long as due attention is paid to weeding out genetic problems and not breeding individuals with known recessive problems in their lines.