Planning to Breed?

[Judi W]

Originally posted by Dei:
<STRONG>"The plural of anecdote is not data." -- Stephen Budiansky
</STRONG>

Author of "The Covenant of the Wild" and a book well worth reading for anyone interested in furthering their knowledge of animal behavior, the human/animal bond and the responsibilities of good animal husbandry.

[Burnsway]

"The Covenant of the Wild"

Judy I wish you would just stop!!!!!!.... :D

I have read so many books but you seem to throw a few up here I have missed and when someone does that I jot it down on paper so I can remember and I went to the dog show yesterday with this long list and of course they were selling books!!!! I spent 200 bucks yesterday and had to haul 75 pounds of books around with me for 8 hours!!!! ROFLMAO!!!!

I guess we will be eating Mac and Cheese and Sandwiches this week too!!!! Of course while Im reading these books and my dogs are eating super premium foods.....

The 2 closest librarys to me have crap for reading in the animal section... :(

[Judi W]

Most libraries will be happy to get a book on loan from elsewhere for you. Ask them. Specialized books are usually quite expensive($30 or so) as you have discovered.

Important knowledge usually doesn't arrive by divine inspiration - we get it from others and when we are very lucky, they write it down to share. The wonders of Gutenburg!

[Carina43]

[hijack]...if you want books to keep, try Amazon.com. They also sell used books for way cheaper...I've had good luck buying otherwise expensive books that way.[/hijack.]

[Burnsway]

I will keep this short since we are going off topic a little. Judy, yes the library will order them from elsewhere if it is within district. But if I read one I like which is almost any book I read I like to have my own copy. Carina, although amazon has good deals if they dont offer free shipping the book ends up costing more than a new book off the shelf. The ones I got at the show were not all that bad. They were 20% off shelf price,,,, :D

I have a 10 by 5 closet in my apartment with over 400 books stacked. 90% are dog and child psychology books....roflmao!!!

[Dei]

Yes, I'm trying to get through all of Budiansky's books. I've just finished "If a Lion Could Talk" (must become required reading for anyone who humanizes their pet) and loved "The Truth about Dogs" (also excellent). I'll look out for "The Covenant of the Wild."

If you wish to purchase a specialist book (though this isn't really specialist material -- just one that appeals to a slightly less broad audience) you couldn't do better than to browse the shelves of a used book store, where they'll most likely be available for a fraction of the cost of the new ones.

I can tell just how terrible 'minor' problems can be. My parents' third lab (we jokingly call her their 'grandchild') has a terrible predeliction to hot spots. In hours, large sections of her skin can slough off into raw, wet, stinking, painful messes.
It'd be bad enough if it were an individual thing, but ALL her 19 littermates (from two breedings) show the same problem. And when we take her to the vet's, we tend to meet many other lab owners with the same problem.

We compared notes: There aren't any commercial diets available for sale, so everyone has to make their own. No two people prepare their dogs' meals the same way and it made no difference. Vaccination? No apparent connection between boosters and outbreaks. Fleas? Some connection, but even when there wasn't a single one left in the house or yard, she still broke out. Underlying health problem? Repeated and varied blood tests, skin scrapings, urine and stool samples all come up with nothing. Breed line? Obviously, but the problem has appeared in labs imported from a half dozen countries and comparing pedigrees showed no immediate common relations.
I rifled through the breed book we kept for reference ("The Labrador Retriever" by Dorothy Howe & Anna Katherine Nicholas) for any insight on the problem and, yes, it was mentioned, in a tiny paragraph that only mentioned the nuisance it was to showing dogs. Grrrrrrr...

It's awful. Lassie (my parents have a strange sense of humour, I know) has had no other health issues and at nine years she's still an energetic, happy dog but the misery she goes through with every single bout is evident. It doesn't help that living way out in the Tropics has meant that every single bottle of Evening Primrose Oil, Tea Tree Oil shampoo and all the other things we use to try and keep her skin soothed has to be imported. And we are not happy over the quantities of predinisone she's had to take over the years. Some owners of direct imports got so frustrated that they sent their dogs right back to their breeders.

Now given that the labrador retriever was a breed developed to retrieve waterfowl from frigid water (and that, thanks to its versitility has made it to every corner of the globe in a vareity of roles), can you think of just how useful a dog that has to spend six weeks regrowing its coat on account of having lost much of it to this condition would be during the hunting season? Would the breed have gotten anywhere as far as it did if earlier specimens had been this fragile? How many breeders thought this was no problem so long as they kept the supplements and 'special care' coming for it to become this bad?

We love labs and the previous two our family owned were absolutely no problem. But no, the next dog shall not be a lab, no not even as a gift.

Let me assure you that these sensitivites do have a genetic basis and that no breed deserves to have them become the rule rather than the exception.

Dei.

[Judi W]

"Minor" problems in a breed can become so prevalent because they are ignored as being benign which is why you will have difficulties finding exempt families even in breeds with a fairly large gene pool.

A good example would be pano and gut problems in GSDs. Go ahead and breed the pano dogs because it is not fatal and goes away after a few months. Well, now we are seeing dogs whose pano can last till they are 2 or 3 years of age!

[alexav]

Some "breeders" use genetically defected breeding stock because they say it is a "Necessary evil".

After corrective surgery for entropion on my rescue Chow,(She had been suffering constantly til then.) :( I found out that in Shar pei and Chow Chow breeding, even the most "ethical" breeders find that to get the wrinkled brow and expression so "valued" in the ring, it is quite common to use breeding stock with entropion and as a general rule the puppies must have thier eyelids tacked.
This procedure is usually done WITHOUT anesthesia during the period of psychological development commonly called "the fear period". Now THAT makes alot of sense!
No wonder there are so many fear biting Shar peis and Chows! Not only are these breeds predisposed to a reserved, suspicious nature but now we are going to hurt them when they are most impressionable.

One only has to look at the pictures of the earliest Chow Chow champions to see that they are a much healthier dog, capable of actual work! Now the heavy, overdone facial features cause untold misery for the pet quality puppies that pay the price for that one competitive pup the "breeder" was striving for...

[Judi W]

While it is popular to say that AKC registration "ruins" breeds, in the case of the SharPei, it is likely to be saving. AKC prohibits dogs that have been surgically altered from being shown. When I used to judge the rare breeds, they would even arrive in the ring with stiches in place! The meat mouths have the most problems with not only stitched eyelids, but mouths. Also, in AKC, you don't get to bite the judge and then go on showing and become a CH. This rule on surgically altered dogs applied to all breeds, and believe me, someone will tell. That showing does have some meaning.

[alexav]

Judi W,
When the stitches are out and the hair has grown back, how can you tell?

(Not arguement, just question.) :)

[Judi W]

Several things happen. Competitors will rat out the offender. An disaffected handler has been known to do that, and a judge who is aware of areas where this is common, usually feels for the stitch/incision area.

You will often see in the Gazette where an owner has been suspended and a dog disqualified because of being surgically altered -this also applied to dentition, surgery for HD and so forth. Judges check the webbing on the toes of Cockers, look closely for evidence of eye surgery, check for the tail being cut on some of the breeds that are penelized for a gay tail - and on and on. A carefully tacked eye without incision and that the dog grows into might get away with it, but the dog would need to be kept out of any competitor's view during that time. I know of a Rottweiler CH who had his title taken away because a handler reported the dog for having surgery for OCD.

No, they are not always caught, but it is a grave offense. I have seen much improvement in the eastern breeds that are admitted to AKC because of these rules.

[WorkinDogz]

Just doesn't make much sense, does it, Dei :(

The he/she "is just fine for breeding" way of evaluation is responsible for more harm than it ever will (re)produce good.

Just confuses the hell outta me.

[alexav]

Judi W,
Well, I must say that is good news. I hope all judges are as consciensious as you are. When I take our Curly into the ring, it seems that they go over him SO fast.

I heard of a Rottweiler who had an undescended testicle but was otherwise stunning. The owner had a friend who was a plastic surgeon and they implanted a small silicone sac. (this was pre-neuticals) :) All went well and the dog recieved multiple championships. When he was competing for an international title, the judge was quite shocked to find THREE testicals on the dog as the missing one had come down unexpectedly. I didn't believe the story, but I have heard it from several different sources. What do you think?

Back to entropion...and surgical altering, Does eyelid TACKING count? I don't show my Chows in conformation, I'm just curious. I know that a very successful Chow breeder/handler here has many of his prospects tacked because I have assisted the Veterinarian!

[Burnsway]

Originally posted by alexaV:
<STRONG>I heard of a Rottweiler who had an undescended testicle but was otherwise stunning. The owner had a friend who was a plastic surgeon and they implanted a small silicone sac. (this was pre-neuticals) :) All went well and the dog recieved multiple championships. When he was competing for an international title, the judge was quite shocked to find THREE testicals on the dog as the missing one had come down unexpectedly. I didn't believe the story, but I have heard it from several different sources. What do you think?
</STRONG>

Let me tell you a little story. This would be about the only showing and breeding experience I have had. I actually was going to post this last night but decided not to till you said this Alexa. Around 13 years ago as everyone probably remembers the Pomeranian was the big winner. AAAAAHHHHHHH I thought, I love dogs and I think this will be my big carreer....

Well hubby#1 started by going out and getting me a female(white) GORGEOUSE!!! Then a male(Orange/White) GORGEOUSE. Well female grew......AND GREW TO 17 POUNDS!!!!ROFLMAO!!! Male stayed great!!!!!5 pounds....gorgeouse and walked in show matter automatically!!!

Well obviously even being novice at all this I said no way I can or will breed my bitch!!! I GOT ROOKED!!!! Well time passed and as you said Alexa...THE MALE WAS MISSING A THINGY!!!! And yes Alexa they can drop later!! My vet offered the same silicone thingy saying judges would never know but she would have to surgically remove the other one inside so it would not drop...

I said sorry I'm to honest, and that was the end of my breeding/show carreer.... :o

I was asked often if I would stud him out when I walked him around breeders. I always said no for the reasons you guys have posted. If I had litters with defaults I would place them in homes or keep them but even young and novice as I was 13 years ago I would have never bred them knowing these faults. Its just not fair to the future owners or the breed.. :(

As most know I still have my 13 year old, now 14 pounds akc papered female "MUTT"...Roflmao. Maybe one day I will find out what she "really" is.... :D

The scary thing is that I had papers on both and could have bred them and sold them to suckers at 4-6 hundred bucks a pop.... :(

Its hard to believe that it is that easy.

[ July 23, 2001: Message edited by: Burnsway ]

[Judi W]

Good story but impossible. An undescended testical is not going to suddenly descent at an adult age.

Back to breeding. The reason for the rules is that the show ring is supposed to be a venue for breeding potential. As such, people should be able to "see" what attributes the dog has that are likely to be passed on to the offspring. Faults that are disguised will still show up in the offspring. Also, remember that not all faults come from the sire. ;)