Question about breeder?

[rotts 1]

I was wondering if anyone can help me in the right direction? I put a deposit down for a puppy I was to get in March. The contract was never signed by either party. I had not heard from the breeder in over a month, so I did a little snooping on my own. This breeder is very well known. I was promised a puppy from a particular stud and bitch. Later I found I was lied to. He never had rights to the stud(this I know because I contacted the owner of the male). Now on his web site, he has the female bred to one of his own dogs. I asked for my deposit back. He said it was non-refundable due to the contract. In other words I won't see it, because he was caught in a lie. Sorry this is so long, but I am upset. It wasn't a large to deposit probably to most. But it's the fact that this well known breeder can do this and get away with this that has me so upset. He won't talk to me at all.
Before you ask, yes I did research this. I went to houses who bought dogs from him before. Unfortunately, I did not realize he lied to me about the stud. I did not know he will never have rights to the stud ever again. Any help in the right direction would be great. Again sorry so long.

[Homerhomer]

Sorry to hear about your sitaution. I can't really point you to any direction other that I think you are at your loss and stay away from this breeder as far as possible. I am getting an impression that he may be well known, however he earned his reputation based on quantity not on quality.

I however have another general question. Does asking for a deposit says anything about the breeder. I have visited number of websites of different breeders and some take deposits and some don't. IMO why would a reputable breeder take deposits? Since they have a reputation of producing great dogs, they probably have no more than two litters per year, so there is a probably a waiting list anyway. Also, even the bitch have 11 or 12 puppies how can the breeder guarantee 3 or 4 months down the road that there will be a puppy matching the needs or the situation of the purchaser?
Thanks

[frontierrots]

MOST reputable breeders take deposits. They do so because that way they KNOW for a fact how many of those inquiries are dead serious!

99% of the people who want to be "put on the list" either change their mind by the time pups are born, OR they were in a hurry and bought a pup from elsewhere. Those dropout people cause a great deal of problems especially when you've been saving a puppy for them and turned away some really nice homes.

I will refund a deposit in the event that the right pup for that person is not in the litter (temperament, sex etc) or in the event of unavoidable, unplanned personal problems things of that nature. Otherwise the deposit is refunded in the event of a "mind change" after the pup is resold minus any extra expenses incurred (advertising etc,)

[WorkinDogz]

I agree with Diane.

I haven't bred many litters; nor will I.....but; I do take deposits when I'm planning a breeding.

Likewise; I expect a deposit when reserving my stud dog (when I have a stud dog..lol).

One of my best friends in the entire world and I co-owned a dog together. I trust her with my life and the lives of my dogs and kids.....but we ALWAYS left a paper-trail even between US.

Verbal contracts are NOT good business.

In the case above; your deposit reserved a puppy from a particular breeding. You failed to get that in writing. Now; you're stuck with "your word against his".

I have my own contracts that I take with me when I'm putting a deposit down so if the breeder doesn't have or use "Deposit Contracts" then I'll have one handy.

It's very simplistic. It gives the amount of the deposit and on what breeding. It also lists what pick of the litter my deposit guarantees. (I got caught once....... I put a deposit for "pick male" and didn't realize that the "pick male" would be the pick AFTER the stud dog owner picked HIS male and female out of the litter. I happened to pick the puppy that the stud dog owner chose; and imagine my surprise when I was told "sorry; that one is taken" Taken? How could that be? I HAVE PICK MALE....... yes.....AFTER THE STUD DOG OWNER gets HIS payment for the breeding..... $400 lesson learned. I walked away without taking home a puppy or my deposit.....but.....I walked away a helluva lot smarter too ;) )

[Homerhomer]

so if the purchaser has very high standards, just like yoursef WD, and for some reason even if the breeder is excellent, the parents are great, no puppies that are available to yo that meet your standards, then you loose the deposit and it's OK?
Let's also assume that in an extended period of time (like a year or two) you have identified 4 or 5 breeders and the litters that may meet your requirements, and again for some reason there are no puppies available to you that meet your standards, you loose all the deposits?
Let me ask another question then, when do you take the deposits, when the bitch is pregnant or when pups are 4 weeks old and you begin to see what they are all about?

[frontierrots]

I start taking deposits before the bitch is even bred. I have 2 deposits for Rott pups right now that I have had for 3 years.!! Each time a litter has been born in that time (2) and a pup for those people has not been avail (first litter not enough females and second litter all but 1 perished) I have asked them if they want their money back or wait and each time they have said they want to wait. :)

I also have deposits for my next Shiba litter that I've had for over a year.

I take deposits at any time and the people are clearly told when a litter is planned and that we won't know what is really here til pups are born.

I would NEVER wait til a litter was several weeks old before taking deposits as I require references and check the people out thoroughly before they can even come see the babies. This takes a few weeks usually.

I keep all pups until they are 10 weeks old and the buyers also have to read Culture Clash before they can take the pup. So if I wait too long to take a deposit then there would be a substantial delay before they could take their baby home.

As I said before my deposits are refundable in the event the right pup (personality, sex, conformation etc.) is not born or in the event of a family/personal/work problem.

All the good breeders I know follow the same beliefs

[WorkinDogz]

Peter,

I do the same as Diane. Deposits reserve a puppy, if there is a puppy that meets the buyers requirements.

I always offer a refund of a deposit if there is not a puppy that suits the buyers desires. (I WON'T place a working-prospect puppy in a pet home. Period.)

I have 1 $250 deposit that I've had since 1991! Every year; on the anniversary of the signing of the Deposit Contract; I send a registered letter to the person asking for a RE-SIGNING of the contract (obviously it won't be the same breeding as the original.....so that place is blank on the contract and "to be determined" put in its place) OR REQUEST FOR RETURN OF DEPOSIT.

Every year.....the contract comes back signed.

Like I said; if I want "any dog" then I wouldn't be as particular and finding the one I want wouldn't be tough... But with any exceptional breeder; you best be prepared to WAIT.

I'm willing to do that.

[Homerhomer]

OK Ladies, thanks for answering all my pesty questions :) I am not in the process of looking for a pup and won't be doing that for many years to come, however want to learn all the ins and outs of buying a pup so I will be prepared when the right time comes....
Thanks

[rotts 1]

Thank you for your responses. Just a question though? So I am out my deposit? And there's nothing I can do? Seems so unfair that a breeder can do this. I did find a breeder and I am willing to wait for my puppy. He has kept in contact with me. I am going through the owner of the male from the orginal one. I am just beside myself that there are breeders who could do this. Thankfully the owner took the money of my purchase for all I've been through(and that was very nice, he didn't have to that). But that still doesn't make what was done right. Thank you for letting me vent(& giving my husband a break).

Thank you again!

Debbie

[Soapie&Buddy'sMom]

Legally, you could take him to small claims court. Or hire a lawyer for a flat fee to write him a threatening letter (but you have to be willing to really sue the guy if he doesn't pay up.) There are lawyers that specialize in "collections" activity. It depends on how much you are owed, it might not be worth it.

Anyway, the guy sounds like a crook, I'd make this as public as you can.

[TrishB]

Originally posted by Soapie&Buddy'sMom
Legally, you could take him to small claims court. Or hire a lawyer for a flat fee to write him a threatening letter (but you have to be willing to really sue the guy if he doesn't pay up.) There are lawyers that specialize in "collections" activity. It depends on how much you are owed, it might not be worth it.

Anyway, the guy sounds like a crook, I'd make this as public as you can.

I'm with Soapie&Buddy'sMom on this one. Write the letter and see what sort of reaction you get. I've also heard of other people writing letters to the breed associations / clubs that the offending breeder is a part of. Just to get the 'public' support you'll need.

But I do agree that you don't want a pup from this guy and are better off without him. Better that you found out now rather than after you were tied to him with one of his pups!

[Muckdogs]

I'm sure this post will get deleted or edited by one of our diligent moderators, but I'm a sayin' it anyway -> I think what happeneed to you stinks and it's not the first time things like this have happened to folks. I think that you should post the breeders name on this forum for all to see so that other unsuspecting, trusting, diligent folks don't get ripped off. Not everyone is an attorney versed in contract law so how are some people to know what to get in writing, especially when you are dealing with a joyous thing, like a new puppy. This ain't like buying a car or house. The last thing people are thinking is "Gee, I wonder if this guy is going to rip me off" when buying a puppy. For god's sakes, how low can you get?

I belong to several other forums on different topics. On two in particular, dealing with corvettes, members regularly post both good and bad experiences with car dealers, parts suppliers, vendors, etc.. so that folks can patronize those that deal in honesty and integrity and those that don't, well, they lose a heck of a lot of business and get a bad reputation. I personally think that it is a tremendous service to the consumers out there. The internet is a very powerful place for people to have negative things said about them, particularly if they are business people. Usually, someone from the forum emails the bad guy the thread and the victim is usually reimbursed or otherwise made whole.

So I say, post the name so that the eithcal breeders aren't given a bad name and ETHICAL, DILIGENT BUYERS aren't victimized. WE have enough problems with BYB's and our breed in general, the last thing we need is supposed good breeders ripping people off.

I'm positive others will differ in opinion :D :D :D, but I wolud like to hear input as far as a forum suggestion.

Just my .02

[Soapie&Buddy'sMom]

Maybe the breeder's name could be PM'ed? I think the reason it wouldn't be allowed to be posted publicly is the potential for a defamation claim.

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by Muckdogs
So I say, post the name so that the eithcal breeders aren't given a bad name and ETHICAL, DILIGENT BUYERS aren't victimized.

Members are not allowed to do this for several reasons:

1. Posting negative information on these forums regarding specific (named) breeders can result in lawsuits being filed against the forums for defamation of character.

2. Breeders are not allowed to advertise on the forums. Posting Breeder information, even negative information, is free advertising. (Not everyone cares if they buy from an ethical breeder or not.)

Phoenix

[Muckdogs]

Yup, I knew the rules so I knew it was coming, just a matter of when. :D :D