Pet Sterilization Becomes Law in LA (Cal.)

[royalarrival]

You are right in that you can lead a horse to water, but can not make it drink. I don't live in CA and don't know what kind of educational/assist programs they have available.
In our area, there are educational/assistant programs, but will admit promoting the programs to reach more of the population will help. Offering free spay and neuter to those that qualify will help. Currently they offer low cost spay and neuter programs.
Currently (in our area) you can adopted an intact dog with agreement that spay/neuter will be done. You have a certain amount of time to show vet papers stating procedure was completed. It leave a window of opportunity for a breeding. The man power is limited and follow-up are minimal. Spaying and neutering before the dog is adopted will solve that problem. Of course, taxpayers will be forced to pay the spay/neuter bill.

It is a vicious cycle.

I am on the fence with this law. The law does not effect me (PA). The law does set an example which could lead to other government bodies adopting the idea.

[JoJo]

What hysteria? Because someone values their constitutional rights and object to more made up laws that will only create new criminals? (honest citizens NOT abiding by the law)

I will say that locally here, all discussion by Big Brother has been that their primary targets are puppy mills and pet shops.

Now if that was REALLY the reason for this law, then why not just state that "ONLY APPLIES FOR PUPPY MILLS AND PET SHOPS"?

Train your dog for competition obedience/rally/carting/tracking/schutzhund/therapy/dock diving/whatever, OR show your dog in conformation, OR obtain a breeding license, OR have your vet exempt an old, young or sick dog....and you are FREE to leave your dog intact as long as you'd like

Now don't you think that whole statement was pointless? Meaning, if one wants to find that BIG loop hole, they won't have their animal spayed or neutered. Or they just won't bother "registering" their animal and say screw the whole process. As I said, one law will create a new criminal. Enforce what they have and EDUCATE the people. Better yet, make LA an zone free animal place. Pick up all animals and throw them in a no-kill shelter for a life sentence. Or how about fighting PETA a new form of terrorists!!

Yes, this law scares me BIG TIME. Hysteria, not yet, but close!

[royalarrival]

Just wanted to let you know why I am on the fence.

I see loop holes in this law that will still allow unethical breeding. Unintentionally, but they are there. The idea to become a no kill worries me. I would rather be humanly euthanized than spend the rest of my life in a kennel because I am unadoptable. And last, Big Brother dictating in what is suppose to be a free country. Like you said, sometimes we have to pay for the few idiots in the world. With the current pet overpopulation crisis, I guess there are more of those idiots than we think.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by JoJo

What hysteria?

As I said, one law will create a new criminal.

Enforce what they have and EDUCATE the people.

Better yet, make LA an zone free animal place.

Yes, this law scares me BIG TIME. Hysteria, not yet, but close!

Yep, you're hysterical. We've been down this road before and I've already had my say.

Is there any act that is wrong without a law against it? Only a million or so, I'd guess. But since people don't friggin' CARE, being "wrong" doesn't mean a thing, so we make it criminal by instituting a law. You got a better answer? Why don't you come on out here and fix it?

[JoJo]

Why don't you come on out here and fix it?

No need to get testy! First, I'd wouldn't step foot in CA....the excess exhaust seems to effect the human brain waves. Second, taking away ones freedoms is NOT the answer that it seems so fine and dandy with the idiots who wrote this. Third, why not enforce the laws already in place? Fifth, who's going to pay for all this? Don't any of you ask these questions? Sixth, speaking of who CARES and who doesn't.....I THINK you wouldn't want a poor animal living in a cage the rest of his life if he wasn't adoptable. Now that to me is very INHUMANE! Moondog, there HAS to be a better way, but NOT at the expense of ones FREEDOMS. As for insulting A LAW! People INSULT laws by the minute. This one will just create a new INSULT.

We both don't see eye to eye on this MAJOR PROBLEM. I will fight to the end IF this law even comes near me!! Otherwise, I WILL be INSULTING the law in the future.

I'm really interested in following the progress of this new and improved procedure. I wonder if anyone will post the stats on how many owners (weekly, monthly etc) are going to walk like sheep into the arms of glory and get the snip snip and spay spay!

[moondog]

Originally Posted by JoJo

No need to get testy!

If you said "my dog misbehaves", and I said "train your dog" would you call me "testy"? Same thing. You're great at pointing out a problem, yet all you can do is complain. If you're going to speak up, offer solutions, otherwise you're just another problem. What's your solution besides education, which of course doesn't work for the stupid?

Originally Posted by JoJo

First, I'd wouldn't step foot in CA....the excess exhaust seems to effect the human brain waves.

That's fine by me. I always tell people who complain about LA that they are FREE to leave (or FREE not to show up in the first place)....It's appears you haven't been here for quite some time, if at all.

Originally Posted by JoJo

Third, why not enforce the laws already in place?

Which laws are those? I was under the impression puppy mills were legal. You know, they deserve their freedom, just like YOU, to do as they please.

Originally Posted by JoJo

Fifth, who's going to pay for all this? Don't any of you ask these questions?

Hey, you're the righteous one in this discussion. No, I never question anything. Although reducing the population of unwanted pets and saving the cost to kill all those animals will likely cover the cost quite nicely.

Originally Posted by JoJo

Sixth, speaking of who CARES and who doesn't.....I THINK you wouldn't want a poor animal living in a cage the rest of his life if he wasn't adoptable.

I think the "no kill" is being taken out of context. The idea is to reduce the numbers of unwanted pets to a number close to the number of those seeking to adopt, not to keep them kenneled for the rest of their lives. If the numbers don't drop, they'll still be euthanizing.

Originally Posted by JoJo

I'm really interested in following the progress of this new and improved procedure. I wonder if anyone will post the stats on how many owners (weekly, monthly etc) are going to walk like sheep into the arms of glory and get the snip snip and spay spay!

Me, too. Except I won't be wallowing in my superiority and belittling those who comply with laws needed to live in a civilized society.

[JoJo]

Which laws are those? I was under the impression puppy mills were legal. You know, they deserve their freedom, just like YOU, to do as they please

My point Moondog......it's called CAPITALIZIUM (sp?). That's the American way, for we aren't a Socialized government, YET. That's why EDUCATION IS THE SOLUTION. Freedom is for me and YOU. I just have a different definition of the word then you I guess.

Testy, yes. You sounded very testy when one wasn't agreeing with your philosophy. But I guess we need to agree to disagree on this one.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by JoJo

My point Moondog......it's called CAPITALIZIUM (sp?). That's the American way, for we aren't a Socialized government, YET. That's why EDUCATION IS THE SOLUTION. Freedom is for me and YOU. I just have a different definition of the word then you I guess.

My freedom is no more touched by this ordinance as one against murder is. I have every desire to train my dog, and no desire to murder. So any laws that address these issues don't affect my freedom at all.

You're rocking the same ol' boat (the one that has a hole in it). Since history has well-proven that education, while always the best first choice, is not the end all or be all for solving problems....simply because it is voluntary and people are FREE not to be educated..it is only PART of the solution. Perhaps you would be so kind as to offer the REST of it?

Originally Posted by JoJo

Testy, yes. You sounded very testy when one wasn't agreeing with your philosophy. But I guess we need to agree to disagree on this one.

Hey, you're the one who came on blasting the concept, hollering about freedoms, and calling anyone who complies a brainless idiot. That's testy.

Put up or shut up.

[JoJo]

who complies a brainless idiot.

Sounds like you're taking this way too personal UNLESS you are one of them that wrote the law.

idiots who wrote this

I'll shut up since this LAW is your problem, not mine YET. But be assured, IF this stupid law tries to be passed here, YES I will speak my RIGHTEOUS mind and let them know that this is far from being CONSTITUTIONAL and it IS infringing on peoples rights.

No one that is a responsible owner wants to see the animal population continue to explode. Nor do we wish to see animals caged for life (no kill is just that unless adopted) come to an all time high. This isn't the answer. If it was that simple, then something would have been done long ago. Like I said, EDUCATION is the key. If it's one person or a million that "get it", it's better then FORCING PETA'S law down ones throat.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by JoJo

But be assured, IF this stupid law tries to be passed here, YES I will speak my RIGHTEOUS mind and let them know that this is far from being CONSTITUTIONAL and it IS infringing on peoples rights.

Good luck with that. Without offering a viable solution that addresses the larger part of the problem that education reaches but doesn't TOUCH, I fear you're not going to have very much of it, though.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by JoJo

Sounds like you're taking this way too personal UNLESS you are one of them that wrote the law.

I'm not taking it personally at all...I'm IN compliance without a law ever being in place.

You'd foster much more respect if you'd just offer the smoking gun and quit with the belittling of law abiders. Unless you can't.

[observer]

I'm not sure this law is the answer to anything, but I have to question the reaction that it is "unconstitutional" because it makes a person do something that they don't want to do, or infringes on "rights". What provision of the Constitution is being violated? Not every restriction on one's property or how they use that property (and that's what dogs are, for purposes of this discussion) is "unconstitutional.

[JoJo]

I'm not sure this law is the answer to anything, but I have to question the reaction that it is "unconstitutional" because it makes a person do something that they don't want to do, or infringes on "rights". What provision of the Constitution is being violated? Not every restriction on one's property or how they use that property (and that's what dogs are, for purposes of this discussion) is "unconstitutional.

Bill of Rights which include Civil Liberties

Freedom of choice, i.e. 1. free will.

1. Freedom of thought is also known as freedom of conscience and refers to the right of an individual to hold a particular thought, belief or viewpoint regardless of those held by others.

You'd foster much more respect if you'd just offer the smoking gun and quit with the belittling of law abiders. Unless you can't.

The ONLY RESPECT I DEMAND is to respect my FREEDOM OF CHOICE. My FREEDOM to do whatever with my property. Smoking gun? The only smoking gun is CA law makers who write laws that make people feel good THINKING they are going to solve this problem. It will solve nothing but fleece the public of their hard earn money. If I were you, I'd demand a paper trail and see where it's (the money) going. Probably in PETA's pockets.

My last statement on this subject. Here's some food for thought:

Regarding enforcement who’s going to identify owners who don’t follow this new law? Will it be like insurance companies wanting doctors to rat out their patients so they are uninsurable? Will Veterinarians be left to enforce this? Where will these Police come from? Who will they be? Will they knock on your front door? It seem to me that the only people who will have their pets intact will be people who break the law. Are they now criminals? Who's going to collect the fines? What's going to happen if they don't pay those fines?

[moondog]

You have a choice. You can train or show your dogs, you can breed your dogs, you can have a sick dog...........or you can spay/neuter.

Dogs should be in class until 2-3 years old. By then, they have matured enough to be safely spay/neuter without harm to development. Eesy peesy.

[observer]

"Freedom of choice" and "free will" are not in the Bill of Rights. "Civil liberties" is a generalization that doesn't really help the discussion of "constitutionality" of this provision, either.

How this is going to be enforced is an interesting question. But, I don't think it is a constitutional problem.