"Bad Dogs" in Seattle continued

[Lady B]

Viewed Town Meeting this evening. There were horrifically scarred children present as a result of dog attacks by a Husky and an English Bulldog. A male jogger was present who had been attacked by a Rottie in this locale.

Ken Schram moderated well and equitably. He posed thoughtful, well directed questions. An attorney and aggressive dog behaviorist/trainer were present who really helped educate thru this volatile issue.

The concensus is what we, as Rottie owners, all know. It is owner responsibility, accountability and liability. Educate the children as how to be with dogs, never leaving them unattended. KNOW YOUR BREED. Do not impose breed specific legislation. Impose higher insurance bonds of 500K to lM for those owners with dogs determined to be dangerous (there is presently a bill before WA state House of Representatives to impose a 250K bond). Force the prosecutors to act swiftly in filing charges when a dog attacks. Our last Rottie attack of 2 months ago ended with a man with permanent nerve damage to arm and leg and no legal recourse against the owners. They moved within a week after the attack with no charges being filed. The dogs were immediately killed on site.

This was a very favorable show for us in the Pacific Northwest. It provided a start to public education. Now I get to do more snail and E-mail!!

[This message has been edited by Lady B (edited March 28, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Lady B (edited March 28, 1999).]

[Jeremy]

I was very impressed with the show and almost started crying because of the fairness of everybody in the crowd, about time that things were explained about dogs, for one thing I can't understand this, An English Bulldog? I thought they were supposed to be one of the nicest breeds around?
That one kid who got bit by the 9 month old Husky should have been taught not to grab things from a dog and the dog should have been taught not to bite somebody for reaching their toy! If the former owner had trained their dog that then the kid would have been allright.DUH!
Whats up that former Dog Pound Officer?
That one lady who had her kid attacked by a well trained and socialized Rottweiler, I think she left somethings out of her story because I have never known a well trained dog to attack anybody without reason. That dog must have some health issues and had its nerves very touchy. I could be wrong but who knows. Ingorant lady wanted to ban Rottweilers.

[Baren]

Jeremy, Rottweilers are one of the nicest breeds! All dogs have protective instincts. From the Tibetan Mastiff to the labrador. It 's the owner that make the difference and the type of owner who would bye a dog and would treat the dog badly enough to make it as bad as himself. The problem is, that nobody judges the owner. Only the dog. You can find Rotties and Pits that have the instincts of a cat, and a chiwaua with the heart of a lion. Buldogs (British also) were used for dog fights and are also the ancestors of the pit-bulls. All dogs can be dangerously ferocious and all dogs can be cats!

[Jeremy]

I didn't say that Rottweilers were not the nicest breeds, I believe they are one of the loylist and intelligent breed in the working group. I am a little confused about the English Bulldog, that dog had to be trained the wrong way or something because that is a first attack I have ever heard of a modern English Bulldog, maybe it was a mix PitbullxBulldog, I don't know but it still confuses me. Yes all dogs have some kind of instinct that still connected with wolves, including the little Taco Bell dogs, which I cannot spell their name. I saw Road Rules where cast members had to get a key on a collar from 50 Taco Bell dogs, boy those suckers can be meaner then my male Rottie who is not even that aggressive with toys like they are ,why because of GOOD TRAINNIG!

[CarolineS]

Quite often, dogs don't need a reason to attack. I think we all have to acknowledge that there are some dogs out there that are just "born bad", no matter what the breed. No amount of obedience, love and rehabilitation will help them. These dogs come from breeders whose top priority is money and no care is taken at all to breed for good temperaments. I have run into a few Rotties like this and I know one Golden Retriever that is miserable.

Another thing that sometimes makes dogs "go bad" is the fact that they're sick, in pain, and no one has noticed. Rotties are very stoic in the face of pain, I would imagine bulldogs are the same. Sometimes a small limp can indicate something as serious as bone cancer, and the owners, figuring the dog has a bad "sprain", ignore it until it is too late. A dog in pain can be very aggressive.

I just wanted to point out that dogs sometimes do attack for no reason. But I am in 100% agreement that the owners should be held totally responsible. After all, they are the ones who made the decision to buy the dog without checking into its background or temperament, and they are the ones who ignored the dog when it was sick, and they are the ones with no common sense.

[Codys ma]

Baren,

On a lighter note, my parents always had cats when I was growing up. They had some pretty nasty ones too! Of course, we lived in a somewhat rustic setting and the cats were basically wild. I would gladly take my cuddle bug Cody over some of the cats we had anyday!

Kim

[Lady B]

A friend of mine once commented that the Pacific Northwest was THE place for common sense. I don't know how she ever came up with that because it is not what I am observing here in regards to dogs. Last week I was walking Baron at about 1000 PM and came across a lady with three yappy dustmops, one of whom was not on lead. This wee one decided to lunge and bark and generally challenge Baron. I put Baron in a sit and, to his credit, he held it. I can't imagine why except for his respect of me. The owner had totally freaked out, was screaming at her dogs and running after the loose one. Of course the other two took her lead and started in barking and lunging at Baron. This was all within Baron's lunging reach. We calmly waited it out until she got control of the loose dog. I was hard put NOT to make a comment about her lack of calm or control but decided to keep quiet. Actually I was so very proud of him at that point I was ready to burst. He is totally confronted with live, challenging prey and he held the sit. I had to remind him once with a word only, no action.

Dogs attack for many reasons, Jeremy. The bulldog may have been sleeping and the 5 year old might have startled him. There are just so many factors to consider in each attack. Resource possessive, ill and in pain, sleeping, etc. The point from the tape was to EDUCATE children as how to behave around dogs, and that means all dogs, not just our breed. Children should never be left alone with any dog. The child who was bit by the 9 mo. old Husky was without adult supervision and was not a member of the family, except by relation. The puppy was wrestling with another dog over a TV dinner container they had retrieved from the garbage and the child attempted to take it away from him. I'd call that resource possessive. Wouldn't you?

This entire issue all goes back to education on many levels. This is what we need to concentrate on. Be it out exercising our dogs, posting information in the local pet stores or in whatever way we can create. In our attempts to eliminate BSL we need to work at educating all dog owners. Some ascribe human attributes and values to their dogs, forgetting that a dog is a dog and requires training to fit into and adapt to human society.

It seems that once this type of legislation takes hold there might be no stopping it simply because some idiot thinks that because a Golden bit the breed must be eliminated. Dangerous dog laws should suffice to cover the problem, not breed specific.

[Jeremy]

ok thanks for all your responses, yes the kid must have made English Bulldog angry,that is the only conclusion I Can come up with for that English Bulldog attack, it just sounds so ridculos that with their reputation they can be aggressive!
Lady B, congraulations with Baron, great to hear that he proved that lady wrong about Rottweilers being aggressive towards little dogs!
Again thanks for the responses.

[Baren]

CarolineS, ofcource brain/character problematic rottweilers can be born just like all dogs including Eng. Bulldogs and also just like humans! I dont agree that it is 100% the owners to blame about an unstable dog, I believe that it should be divided between the owner, the breeder and the person who perhaps provoked the dog to attack. Primarily the owner, but the breeder should also definitely be held responsible for dogs with genetic unstable character problems.
Jeremy, there are many reasons for why a dog would attack, and many factors which make a difference in the number of dog attacks of different dogs. 1 is population. Rottweilers are one of the most popular breeds and that has made a great difference to the number of incidents. Perhaps if there were so many Filas or Tib. Mastiffs, or other mastiffs or any other dog breed, there would be just as many incidents if not more. Perhaps it 's just luck that there have not been any incidents with Eng. Bulldogs until now. It is not just some certain types of dogs that would attack, so I think it 's wrong to believe that it was a Pit bull - Bulldog mix rather that a pure bred Eng. Bulldog. I am sure that if Bull dogs fell into the wrong hands, there would be just as many incidents as with Rotts and Pits. After all, the Pit-Bull, got its fighting insticts from its ancestor the English Bulldog. And Eng. Bulldogs are also known as fierce guard dogs and help with the police and have had a very rough history in Pits.

[Lokki]

CarolineS, great point that needs to be made more often, and LadyB, congratulations on a magnificent animal. I don't think I would have shown the restraint you did by not giving the owner of the lead-less mops a piece of my mind. They are a pet pieve of mine. Nearly as bad are the dogs on the 20 foot leads going down the sidwalk.

I watched an incident where a large male Dane was at a show and a Yorkie was behind him. The Dane was minding his own business and the Yorkie jumped at his swinging "privates" to smell because the blasted thing was allowed to roam on an 8 foot lead and the owner was getting the latest gossip from her friend with some kind of mop. It shocked the Dane and he whipped around and slung the Yorkie. The little beast had one tooth mark, and the owner was going on about how the Dane had attacked her dog. I wanted to ask her if I stuck my hand where it doesnt belong, would she slap me?... but hey, she and the Yorkie COULDN'T be at fault! -- it HAS to be the big ol' nasty dog.

Perhaps we can get some BSL on Mop and Taco-Bell dogs -- They do the most biting.

[Lady B]

Lokki: You are new so I'll let you in on Baron. He was a horribly abused rescue used for Am. Staff. baiting. He had no confidence and wanted to attack anything with 4 legs. The bigger dogs was from fear drive and the little ones from prey drive. I was bustin my buttons from pride in him because less than a year ago he would never have held that sit. That wee dog would have been his evening's dessert!! He is not perfect but has come farther than I dreamed possible. He is ready to take his CGC. He is my magnificent Baron, not standard perfect but perfect for me.

Yes, the little ones are my pet peeve as well. Not so much because of who they are but what their people have allowed them to become. I have more problems from the small dogs due to lack of training than any of the large ones. Imagine the general mind-set is that since they are small and easily controlled that obedience and socialization are not essential.

[CarolineS]

Lady B,

Boy, you can say that again!! Maggie has been attacked by three dogs on our street: a border collie, a toy poodle and a yorkie. Thank god, she showed admirable restraint and didn't retaliate at the time. All three of these dogs were running loose and she was on a leash. All three of them just charged down their driveways, out on to the road, bit her and ran away. I think she was in shock each time it happened. "What is that and where is it?!!"

Unfortunately, Maggie has an excellent memory and now if she see one of them, all her hair goes up and she growls. I know why she's doing it, but, of course, no one believes that anything smaller could possibly attack a Rottie and live, and that she has a perfectly good reason to act slightly aggressively when she sees them. Some people just assume she's living up to her "reputation" and that really ticks me off. Maggie lived in perfect peace and harmony with the little 8 lb. poodle/terrier mop I had when I first got her, and two of Maggie's best friends are Bichons. Being little is no reason to let your dog go untrained and unsocialized.

[This message has been edited by CarolineS (edited April 07, 1999).]

[LannaF]

Hi. I'm new to this forum - I'm glad I found it!
I have a 19 month rottie - Tigger (he's very bouncy!) who goes to "doggy daycare" 2X a week. He interacts/plays with all sizes of dogs, even the small ones, and he's always very careful with them. He has never instigated any fights or attacked any of them, even when he was attacked by an Akita, (which is no longer going there.) Tigger stood his ground but didn't fight back, the Akita ended up backing down and the daycare personnel took him out. The owners of the daycare were amazed at just how good tigger was about the whole incident. Pretty good for a "vicious breed" especially considering the other dog tore his bottom eyelid.

I have 2 main problems dealing when dealing with the public with my Rottie.

1) Owners that don't pay attention to their dogs. Recently while I was waiting to take tigger out of the daycare building, a lady had her Cocker Spaniel on a very loose leash. She wasn't paying the slightest attention to her dog - It lunged and snapped at Tigger's leg - still she did nothing. Fortunately I was paying attention.. Tigger wasn't injured and he didn't try to get at the other dog and I was able to take him out without incident. If he would have retaliated - it would have been another case of a "bad rottweiler" picking on a smaller dog...

2) Parents that don't teach their children to ask before petting or running up to strange dogs(this is a big one!) I take Tigger into public often and don't mind children petting him if they ask first. Tigger does have a tendance to jump up on people so I am very careful to hold him when children want to pet him. I can't count the number of times a child has run up to him and grabbed him without asking first.. Fortunately he is very loving and hasn't minded, and he's gotten much better about the jumping part so nothing has happened. Plus I've learned to expect it when I'm around children - but if he did react to being startled by someone grabbing him from behind - another case of the "vicious rottweiler".

I love my dog and consider him to be a very good dog who would never intentionally hurt anyone. However I will never let him play unattended/off leash with small children around simply because of his nature - he is a "prey driven" animal and however much I train him; it will always be a part of him.
I think that people like the owners of the 2 Rotties in the news recently should have taken that into consideration when they had their dogs off leash in public - especially the 2 year old Rottie which is still very immature at that age. It's too bad the dogs will be put to sleep because the owners didn't have the foresight to look into their dogs' characteristics and take basic precautions that should be taken by all owners of large dogs... and some rather rotten little "rats with long fur"!!

thanks,

Lanna

[German Vanegas]

I am all for stiff legislation holding accountable for and penalizing IRRESPONSIBLE DOG OWNERSHIP! That is what it's all about. However, ignorant people keep erroneously pushing for SPECIFIC DOG BREED BANNING, being the Rottweiler # 1 in their list. Most dog bites occurr due to IRRESPONSABILITY or UNNACEPTABLE NEGLICENCE from the dog's owner... Think about it.

If people were more open minded and politicians were less interested in pursuing personal agendas, we all could find a feasible fair solution to the problem... and still get to keep our beloved well-bred,
well-socialized, well-trained Rottweilers. The problem is not addressed realistically but out of emotions with senseless proposals... The future of the Rottie in the USA is kind of gloomy.

By the way, the European Parliament is considering a wide-spread dog breed banning and related restrictions, which includes the Rottweiler... soon it will be an important issue for our US Congress to consider too...