aggression towards our other dog!?

[Atti's Mom]

Hi all,
lately, I have noticed that Atti seems to be protective of me when it comes to our GSD. I dont mean all the time, but if the GSD runs towards me, Atti will run in between us and push him away from me and bark and growl at him!

Now, if I am sitting on the couch or something, and the GSD (his name is Lenny) comes up to me, or if he walks up to me calmly, Atti has no problem, he just goes about his business as usual.

For example, today, I went downstairs to change my laundry over, and as usual, the dogs followed me........Atti was behind me, when Lenny went zooming past me down the stairs, ran into the laundry room ahead of Atti and me, comes flying back around the corner and as he comes towards me at a full run, Atti goes flying in front of me and literally pushes Lenny away before he can get to me and growls and barks at him while herding him to the other side of the room until I pass through the doorway!!

Once I was in the laundry room, they both came in behind me and Atti was fine again...I ignored them both while I switched things over, and they both layed down, then when I went back up the stairs, they both followed me with no problems!

Atti is definately the Alpha, but this behavior has just started recently, and it is only with Lenny.

Is Atti just "being the Alpha"?? Or is this the start of a problem? How do I handle it? Should I give correction? Please know, the GSD is technically the brother in laws dog...and even though he is a good dog, he hasnt had the training like Atti. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!!! Thanks in advance!!:)

[Atti's Mom]

OK..somebody....please help me on this one.....it happened again today!!!!:(

[WorkinDogz]

Calvary to the Rescue :)

Atti'sMom....he's being POSESSIVE, PUSHY AND OBNOXIOUS. It's up to you to put a stop to it.

Yes. It can easily turn into an aggression issue......because eventually the GSD is going to say "ENOUGH ALREADY!"

When he does this....you should issue a stern; no holds-barred correction and make him aware that while you appreciate his affection; YOU are not "his" to obsess over.

I would tighten up on the obedience with BOTH dogs and issue some "tough love" warnings (and no free-pets...especially none that YOU don't initiate.)

I have one of these Rottweilers too Atti's Mom. Daily; she is reminded that the other dogs are here as well and she is not the one who decides who is "worthy" of sitting next to "her" human.

"Take the Pack Back" ;) and be tough. No bullying allowed. Sit, Stay and wait your turn.

[FredAl]

My read on Atti’s behavior is that he is teaching Lenny proper canine pack rules and respect – Alpha first, Beta next, Omega last. Whatever the reason, you being the leader, should tell them BOTH to quit the bickering to immediately diffuse the situation. Just telling Atti to stop may confuse both dogs about their established pack order. Atti, who knows he’s Beta, may think that you are siding with Lenny and giving him the upper hand. Lenny, who already knows he’s Omega, will notice that you’re siding with and favoring him, and may start forming ambitions of being Beta.

The confusion may just initiate more posturing and positioning for the Beta rank, and may escalate to a full-blown fight for the position.

[Atti's Mom]

Thank You WD and FredAl!!!:)

I just wanted to let you know, I took Atti to a new trainor. She agreed, Atti is being a brat and trying to posess me.
I have been working with him and he is showing improvement, but I am going to take him to a few more sessions with her, then it will be off to another class.

One question I have for you though, this new trainor told me that she thinks I should still take him to a behaviorist and then have him evaluated. I was planning on having him evaluated anyway, before we start into the response training. (which is a long way off now, as I have to get these problems worked out before I can even think about it) but is a behaviorist necessary at this point? Or should I wait and see if the classes and sessions are fixing the problem first? The reason I ask, is because it is costing me 180.00 for 4 one hour private sessions and then it will run me another 150.00 for 6 classes of basic training. It isn't that I don't think it is worth it, just that with hubby out of work, I am squeezing this out of my big toe as it is....so if the behaviorist can wait for a little bit, it would certainly help!! If you think I shouldn't wait though, I will figure it out somehow. Thanks for your help!!!:)
Melissa

[Mick Trainer]

Why does the trainer advise you go to a behaviorist as well? Is it for this problem? And evaluated for what?

Mick.

[Atti's Mom]

Hi Mick,
Sorry I wasn't more clear on my last post, but the trainor I have been working with does not have a lot of experience with Rotties (I found one that claimed to have experience with Rottweilers,, called him up and the first thing he told me was that I would need a choke or prong collar in class, this bothered me since we don't use either with Atti, and I wasn't comfortable) anyway, the trainor I am working with now, suggested that I take him to a behaviorist to see what she thinks and if she agrees that Atti is just being a brat and needs to be worked with, or if maybe there is something underlying that maybe she (the trainor) may not be seeing because of the fact that rottweilers are different from the breeds she has worked with (labs, boxers, GSD's and small breeds)

As for having him evaluated, I assumed she meant that the behaviorist could tell me rather it is weak nerves or just plain brattiness that is making him act the way he has been acting lately. I think she was suggesting it more to ease my nerves than anything else.

I will tell you though, that since we have been working on this, he has been showing improvment and responding to me much better. I am thinking that WD was absolutely right and that he is just being a brat!!!! He is getting the help with the classes and I am learning what I need to put him in his place when he starts, but we still have a long way to go and will continue with the classes but hold off on the behaviorist, unless you and others think it is necessary at this point.

Any extra advice you all can give me would be great!!!
Thanks again,
Melissa:)

[Judi W]

Just curious. You don't use a pinch or training collar -why and what are you using? Just a flat collar?

[WorkinDogz]

Well IMHO a behavior is a behavior is a behavior. You don't need to "know Rotties" to evaluate a dog and identify a behavior.

Pushy, posessive behavior is the same (basically) from breed to breed. It doesn't look very much different when a Lab does it than when a Chihuahua does it.

I can't say why a Behavioralist was recommended. Unless of course the trainer noted other behaviors in Atti that she feels is significant enough to warrant a trip for an evaluation.

I too would like to know why he's not being corrected with a pinch collar. Nagging corrections with a flat collar will do more to reinforce his negative behavior than it will to correct them. Sometimes......a flat collar just isn't enough.

[Atti's Mom]

WorkinDogz and Judi,
Thanks (once again;) ) for your responses. On the collar issue, please don't get me wrong, I would be willing to use a different collar with training, the guy I talked to that knows Rottweilers just insisted that either of the two be used in his class and never gave me an option, also, as far as he goes, I was just very uncomfortable with the guy on the phone. I barely had time to tell him anything that is going on with Atti and he was basically jumping my case and TELLING me what was going to be done with him instead of listening to me and discussing it. The girl that I have been working with didn't sat anything about what type of collar to use and I noticed that several people there used different ones....some had a pinch, one lady had a Halti, and I use a harness.

You will please have to forgive my ignorance in the training department, the only trainor I have used until now, was a friend of mine (who unfortunately moved out of state a few months ago) and she always came to my house and we worked with Atti here, off and on lead, and I used a choke until I started reading that it could cause damage to his throat and then I switched to the harness.
If it would be better to try a different collar, please let me know and I will gladly switch.

As far as the behaviorist, as I said in my last post, I think the trainor suggested that I go ahead and take him to one more to ease my mind than anything else. She did say though, pretty much exactly what WD did about him being pushy and obnoxious etc. She suggested also, that we finish out the private sessions that I have already paid for and then depending on how he does, move to a class after that, plus she has given me some things to work on here at home.

All in all, since I have started back to the basics with him and started being alot more consistant with the corrections, he has improved.:)
In the meantime, any advice you can give is much appreciated, you all are such a great help! Thanks again,
Melissa

[Judi W]

Unless Atti has some unusual frailness or disabilities, I cannot imagine why he is not on a training collar of some sort. My question referred to your statement that you don't use either a pinch or a slip collar. A harness does not lend itself to indicating authority to the dog and respect for authority is an area where Atti needs some improvement.

I suspect that the trainer wants you to go to a behaviorist so that there would be two opinions, not just her own, with the idea that you will have a broader based evaluation of what Atti needs in the way of training. I will be honest, if someone called me with an adult Rottweiler with "issues" and wanted to train using a harness I would say, no way, so you'd be walking away from my training also. Harnesses are made for pulling carts, draft work and tracking all where it is desired that the dog apply pressure, not give to it.

[Atti's Mom]

Thanks again Judy, to be honest, I never insisted on ANY certian collar, the harness is just what we have used for a long time on our walks etc. At the time that my previous trainor was working with us, I had a choke, and then switched to the harness later on. As for my walking away from the guy that said he knew rottweilers, I didn't like his attitude and the fact that he wouldn't even hear me out on what the problem was, instead, I got about as far as to say...I have a rottweiler that has been having a few problems......and that is when he started telling me what he was going to do and that one of the 2 collars were to be used ...period! basically, I never even got to "what" the problem was.

I saw the other trainor tonight.....she told me that if I want to switch to a pinch or prong collar, she would be happy to show me the proper way to use it and she agreed that it would be a good idea to switch from the harness until at least the problem is solved. Does that sound right to you? Or should I plan on sticking to a different collar all together? I am very confused at the moment, I am afraid to do the wrong thing with him and I am starting to question this woman because if I was using the wrong collar, why didn't she tell me that in the first place?!
As always, thank you for the help!
Melissa

[Judi W]

Well, I already told you the purpose of harnesses - to pull. So I don't know why you would want to use one for any other purpose or go back to one. My dogs all work on a simple slip collar. Corrections are given on a slip or pinch collar in training. After training, the pinch should not be necessary. I can't imagine how one would give a correction on a harness. A correction is just what the word implies and it has authority behind it. The trained dog rarely needs a correction and when it does a very small pop of the leash suffices. An untrained dog might need some serious corrections to get with the program. Dog's choice.

Atti is not so fragile that you need to avoid doing something for fear of making a mistake. He's a big boy and will get over it. He's been running the show for quite a while now so he'll probably not be too happy with you asserting yourself, but he'll get over that too. Better that, than him threatening people and bossing everyone around in your household. Just roll up your sleeves and do it. Don't tiptoe around about him. The Rottweiler is a sturdy dog both physically and mentally and requires a sturdy owner. You can be that.

[WorkinDogz]

Well if you happened to tell the trainer you're using now, the events that happened with the "Rottweiler" trainer.....maybe the trainer now was a little "shy" to even mention a prong collar to you. ;)

I think you need to sit yourself down and decide whether or not you're going to be happy with your current trainer. One of the most important things is "trust". As a trainer; I have to be able to trust YOU to follow my advice and direction. If you don't; then you're doing nothing but confusing yourself and wasting MY time.

YOU need to be able to place trust IN your trainer. If you don't feel this one is "right for you".....then look for another. Training is a 3 way street.....trainer--->handler....handler---->dog....handler--->trainer. If one of the elements is missing....the handler--->dog street is anything but smooth.

Consistancy in training is the key to success.

In the defense (maybe that isn't the correct word...but...it'll do for now) of the "Rottweiler trainer"......I can say this: I've allowed owners to go on and on for hours on the phone...telling me what their dogs "problems" are and in a big majority of the cases....it really didn't matter what the owner said. Eyes-on, hands-on evaluation of the dog; means more than anything you could tell that trainer. The fact that he said "prong or choke only" turned you off.....and then you were further insulted that he didn't want to "hear" all of Atti's problems. Well time is a factor. Like it or not. There are very few professional trainers that have the time to sit on the phone; listening to the laundry list of problems. Set up an appointment and let the trainer do what they do. TELL YOU what the problem is.

Maybe you jumped the gun a bit? ;) Oh...and lose the harness.

[Atti's Mom]

Ok,The harness is gone, I bought a prong collar and will take Atti on Monday to the trainer I have been working with to learn how to use it. I will not be using the guy I talked to on the phone, never intended to because of his attitude....I just don't understand how he felt he could tell me what he was going to do with Atti to correct the situation, when he never let me tell him what the situation was in the first place.

I agree 100% that the trainer has to trust me and vise versa, and I am working on that with the girl I have now.
Thanks for your help
Melissa